Braids and other fun for horses :-)

Ana wrote:

.....
 
Then this horse is it "aguti bay" or chestnut with almost black mane? From all photos this one looks most similar to the Britains Suffolk  

Yes
EXACTLY   
The picture is taken in low sun, so it is not very trustworthy, though.
But that horse is NOT chestnut !!!!!
The only "safe" sign of bay is the mane/tail. As far as I can see, the tips of the ears are black also.

But be aware that a silver gene makes the mane on a bay grey-ish
( The silver gene is 100% invisible on a chestnut. People who talk of a "silver chestnut" are wrong. It does not exist as phaenotype. Those horses are bay .)

I'm absolutely no expert and admit to not having dug into the below referenced animals' ancestry with any great diligence, but even so I have to disagree on some points here.

SUSANNE wrote:

Yes, many chestnuts have some dark chestnut hairs in the tail.

koniminiatures wrote:

....... Chestnuts can also have a near-gray manes like here or here.

Those are bays  with silver mane/tail

No, sorry. If you go and look at their pedigrees here for Rillan Poika and here for Siro-Kasku you can see they're made up out of clear chestnuts with no mislabeled silver bays to be seen. Bays are a minority in Finnhorses anyway, making up 4-5% of the current population, and typically come in a pretty clear red bay, oft with pangaré. While wild bay is occasionally seen, I've never seen it with the dark in the legs completely absent; it instead comes expressed most typically as black over the joints only. I've seen one wild bay Finnhorse where the black was restricted to the pastern only, but even then it was very clearly there, and not an absence of eumelanin in the legs.

SUSANNE wrote:

This one : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is silver dappeled black, it is certainly not a chestnut

It's a chestnut, sorry. The same thing: Here you can access both his pedigree and a total of 133 sired foals (the majority of which have several photographs each of them) and you'll see the horse's parents are both chestnut (following the unphotographed chestnut parent's pedigree, you'll see clear-legged chestnut after another - no blacks, no bays; there are several light-legged dark chestnuts there, though, just like Liptus is). As for the offspring, it's nigh all chestnut with even a fair few dark gray-maned chestnuts like the sire himself. His few bay offpring, for what it's worth - pictures here: 1, 2, 3 - are all plain bay.

Less than one percent of Finnhorses are black (and in all likelihood - I say this as silver hasn't been yet gathered official statistics on - even less of those are silver black, then). The few silver lines in Finnhorses are pretty well known; you may access a list with linked pictures here. The gray-maned chestnuts are fairly common in Finnhorses. (Several other European coldblood breeds and some of the British pony breeds quite regularly have them, too.) In a breed like the Finnhorse where bay is a rare colour to begin with, wild bay naturally even rarer, and silver probably rarer still, the hundreds of grey-maned, clear-legged chestnuts can hardly be extreme wild bay silvers; the grey manes just happen on chestnuts. Here are some more chestnut Finnhorses with them: Tähti-Vokke, Villikas (not a sooty palomino, just a light chestnut), Hopian Lennotar and Castellon Pietari (pedigree and offspring accessible here).

SUSANNE wrote:

That is the phaenotype definition of a chestnut, - the mane/tail is never darker that the body.

It can be; it isn't that uncommon. See below for more Don examples.

SUSANNE wrote:

Ana wrote:

.....
 
Then this horse is it "aguti bay" or chestnut with almost black mane? From all photos this one looks most similar to the Britains Suffolk  

Yes
EXACTLY   
The picture is taken in low sun, so it is not very trustworthy, though.
But that horse is NOT chestnut !!!!!
The only "safe" sign of bay is the mane/tail. As far as I can see, the tips of the ears are black also.

But be aware that a silver gene makes the mane on a bay grey-ish
( The silver gene is 100% invisible on a chestnut. People who talk of a "silver chestnut" are wrong. It does not exist as phaenotype. Those horses are bay .)

The horse pictured, Talas/Талас, is a Don; here's another shot of him. They're a predominantly chestnut breed where a clear chestnut coat colour paired with a mane and tail variously darker than the body colour is not uncommon; 1, 2, 3 4, 5, 6 7, 8. You can find several more similar chestnuts by searching for the breed.

Hi Lea, Susanne and Anna

I would have never thought that a toy horse by Britains I bought for a £1 could raise issues regarding horse genetics!   

Also Lea and Susanne I am in awe of your knowledge of horse genetics.

STS is truly amazing!

Anna - looks like I need to show more of my Britains farm animal collection as individual images. I do have a few more horses to post.

[quote="Chris Sweetman]

Anna - looks like I need to show more of my Britains farm animal collection as individual images. I do have a few more horses to post.
[/quote]

That is genetically and colorfully a great idea.

Roger wrote:

\"Chris Sweetman wrote:

Anna - looks like I need to show more of my Britains farm animal collection as individual images. I do have a few more horses to post.

That is genetically and colorfully a great idea.

OK Roger here is one:


Anna - this one also has a braided mane.

Susanne and Lea - I would be interested to know the genetics of this one.

BTW it is made by Britains but was not sold by them. Instead it was a special design supplied to another famous British toy maker - Tri-ang. Tri-ang used it as a load for a BMC Horse Transporter and for an open horse box towed by a Land-Rover. It was made in the mid 1960’s and was to a larger scale than Britains usual 1:32nd scale.

The design was based on one Britains used in 1:32nd scale to pull their light weight horse drawn vehicles. This was based on one made in hollow-cast and later in plastic and was referred to as a "skinny horse”.

Roger wrote:

Chris Sweetman wrote:

Anna - looks like I need to show more of my Britains farm animal collection as individual images. I do have a few more horses to post.

That is genetically and colorfully a great idea.

Yes, I think the same! Maybe Chris could send photos in separate topic in case of horse with unbraided manes?  

Chris Sweetman wrote:

OK Roger here is one:

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Tri-ang Britains Horse 1 by Chris*4, on Flickr

Anna - this one also has a braided mane.

Susanne and Lea - I would be interested to know the genetics of this one.

BTW it is made by Britains but was not sold by them. Instead it was a special design supplied to another famous British toy maker - Tri-ang. Tri-ang used it as a load for a BMC Horse Transporter and for an open horse box towed by a Land-Rover. It was made in the mid 1960’s and was to a larger scale than Britains usual 1:32nd scale.

The design was based on one Britains used in 1:32nd scale to pull their light weight horse drawn vehicles. This was based on one made in hollow-cast and later in plastic and was referred to as a "skinny horse”.

Ha, I think colour of this horse is almost as confusing as Suffolk mare's colour (despite the fact that all Suffolk Punch horses in real life are chestnut). But, because this one is in a bit more reddish shade and has dark hooves, maybe it's more probable to say it's bay with almost no black on legs. Probably Briatins simplified painting and usually do not painted black legs as it would be in typical bay, but they probably thought about painting bay horse? Does it sound reasonable?       

Skinny looks a relatively young horse to me! OK, I know, someone more knowledgeable with horses will say that he is not young, he only hasn't eaten too much these days.
It is a lovely figure and thanks for additional information.

Roger wrote:

Skinny looks a relatively young horse to me! :geek:OK, I know, someone more knowledgeable with horses will say that he is not young, he only hasn't eaten too much these days.  
It is a lovely figure and thanks for additional information.

The body type of this one reminds me of horses in type called HACK   Usually quite skinny horses suitable for light work.   

Ana wrote:

Roger wrote:

Skinny looks a relatively young horse to me! :geek:OK, I know, someone more knowledgeable with horses will say that he is not young, he only hasn't eaten too much these days.  
It is a lovely figure and thanks for additional information.

The body type of this one reminds me of horses in type called HACK   Usually quite skinny horses suitable for light work.   

Thanks for information, Ana! :)

Chris Sweetman wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Tri-ang Britains Horse 1 by Chris*4, on Flickr

Anna - this one also has a braided mane.

Susanne and Lea - I would be interested to know the genetics of this one.

I wonder if I haven't trampled on some toes already, butting in with the genetics of the previous one - but as requested: The colour of the "skinny horse" is nearly as unlikely as is the Suffolk's, I'm afraid. The black mane and tail would make it a bay, but it doesn't have a whiff of black on its legs, which even for a wild bay - the type of bay where the black on the legs is reduced in extent - would be a rare thing indeed.

The realism of coat colours in toy horses isn't something many manufacturers appear to lose sleep over even today; certainly with the older figurines it must have been considered a non-issue entirely - plus there is the fact that the genetics and mechanisms of colour development and heredity haven't been particularly widely understood for long, so mistakes have been easy to make even if the manufacturers were trying to pay attention to that aspect of their figurines.

"Assigning" older equine figurines colour, if you will, according to what real-world option closest suits their existing paintwork, is likely a concern these days mostly for model horse collectors wishing to compete with these models in classes where realism makes a difference in the placings - it can be fun, of course, but not always terribly fruitful.

I cannot tell for certain by the one photo alone, but it looks like the figurine has its mane scalloped - that is, braided like so. This is a braid rarely seen anymore, as it's rather a labour-intensive one to create; it's made by braiding small, loose braids in a mid-length mane, then joining up the end of each to the beginning of the next by string. It was seen a lot more in the riding hacks and ladies' hunters of the past, though, as was the evenly-trimmed, hock-length tail the model sports. Here you can see a 1939 hunter with a cut-even tail and braids (though not scalloped) on a tobacco card from Player's Cigarettes.

Lea, thanks for this information. I have posted some more images of the ’skinny horse’ here:

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Looking at your link to the scalloped mane and the Tri-ang Britains horse I agree on this description.

BTW on Britains 1:32nd scale ‘skinny horse’ this does have even-cut tail.

Anna - I agree with your recognition and this horse model does look like a hack. And again Britains used skinny to pull lightweight carriages.

koniminiatures wrote:

I cannot tell for certain by the one photo alone, but it looks like the figurine has its mane scalloped - that is, braided like so. This is a braid rarely seen anymore, as it's rather a labour-intensive one to create; it's made by braiding small, loose braids in a mid-length mane, then joining up the end of each to the beginning of the next by string. It was seen a lot more in the riding hacks and ladies' hunters of the past, though, as was the evenly-trimmed, hock-length tail the model sports. Here you can see a 1939 hunter with a cut-even tail and braids (though not scalloped) on a tobacco card from Player's Cigarettes.

Wow, braiding mane like is almost artistic work, it had to take so much time, patience and precision. I haven't seen one like that, even on photos, before. Thank you for sharing Lea!   

Carola wrote:

I love your photos Susanne!   Certainly there are many decorations to be found in model horses nowadays.

I'm no horse owner myself(except for miniatures), but I have an impression, that braiding and such is quite normal and ok in horse business. As long as the horse is groomed, happy and well cared for, I guess they don't care if their onwers make a little braid or two?    

Ofcourse, braiding in horse figurines, make them more of characters, than just a reperesentation of a certain breed, I think.

2014 Frisian Mare looks fine in your photos. I'm looking forward to see her on shops...

By the way, the old Schleich Hanoverian Mare, she has also a styled mane  

Of course it's normal for real horses to have braids; they're braided for showing! I can find LOTS of links to real horses with braided manes and tails. And many model horses have braids; I have one on a shelf over my head which has 2 braids in the tail. Model horses with braids are based on a snapshot in time of a real horse. Horses used for sports like dressage or jumping are usually braided to keep the manes out of the riders' eyes. The toy companies know this, so they base their braided horses on real horses braided for shows.

BTW, in case no-one here knows - many Schleichs, Papos, and Safari horses are shown both in photo shows and at live shows by model horse hobbyists. I certain do!

Jennypurr wrote:

BTW, in case no-one here knows - many Schleichs, Papos, and Safari horses are shown both in photo shows and at live shows by model horse hobbyists.  I certain do!

Jenny, that's interesting! I think that Breyer is the brand that is often present in this kind of events but I remember people commenting about other brands figures being used too. About Papo I think it is the first time I am reading.
I hope you have the chance of sharing your experiences and collection with us.