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 My 'Ancient Fishes' figures

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widukind

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Great adds :)

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:34 pm

widukind wrote:
Great adds :)

Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:51 pm

You know, I'm always excited to see you've added a new post.
Not because I like fish, Neutral  no no. Evil or Very Mad
Because I like the pictures you take.
You always add these little bonuses like swimming people, or backdrops, or accessories, or strange looking men holding strange looking things.
It always gives your pictures an extra dimension I find very enjoyable to watch.
They are fun!

I know it takes time and effort to make those kind of pictures.
Time and effort you don't have to make, but you do.
So I'm a fish groupie because of you. LOL.
Thank you.

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sbell

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:01 pm

Bloodrayne wrote:
You know, I'm always excited to see you've added a new post.
Not because I like fish, Neutral  no no. Evil or Very Mad
Because I like the pictures you take.
You always add these little bonuses like swimming people, or backdrops, or accessories, or strange looking men holding strange looking things.
It always gives your pictures an extra dimension I find very enjoyable to watch.
They are fun!

I know it takes time and effort to make those kind of pictures.
Time and effort you don't have to make, but you do.
So I'm a fish groupie because of you. LOL.
Thank you.

Well then I've done my job! And, really, it just gives me an excuse to play with my figures! Otherwise, they'd just sit on shelves or in bins! Wink

I'm glad that they are appreciated!

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Roger
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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:05 am

I love transitional animals. Much probably, transitional animals were considered others if taxonomy was organized in a different way but I think it works very well like that. It is always very interesting to learn with yoru posts and watch your pictures. Very Happy I hope you get the Panini and Yowies. Maybe throught help of our USA and Italia friends. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:22 am

Roger wrote:
I love transitional animals. Much probably, transitional animals were considered others if taxonomy was organized in a different way but I think it works very well like that. It is always very interesting to learn with yoru posts and watch your pictures. Very Happy I hope you get the Panini and Yowies. Maybe throught help of our USA and Italia friends. Very Happy

It is true, our Linnean system--and way of thinking--makes it hard to refer to transitional forms!

I have another post ready for soon...and another that will come up later, since I discovered I messed up some photos!

As for the Panini and Yowie--well, I am aware of a set of Panini, but I have hesitated since it is a whole set, and the CDN $ kind of stinks. I am hopeful that someone (probably in Europe!) wants most of the set, but would be willing to give up one or two of them (at least one--it looks small enough to fit a letter envelope)! I guess I could just sell the rest after I get it... Neutral

And the Yowie was only recently released; I'm sure I'll hunt it down eventually (the US yowies are only just starting to appear on Ebay as it is). Probably easier than the Forgotten Friends grayling!


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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:02 am

Bloodrayne wrote:
.......
You always add these little bonuses like swimming people, or backdrops, or accessories, or strange looking men holding strange looking things.
It always gives your pictures an extra dimension I find very enjoyable to watch.
They are fun!

I know it takes time and effort to make those kind of pictures.
Time and effort you don't have to make, but you do.
......
Thank you.
So true !!! cheers

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:05 am

So far, I’ve kept this thread to groups of fishes from modern bony fishes that are considered to be ‘primitive’, in either features or paleobiogeographic history. Now I’m including fish figures that I have of  groups of non-bony fishes. Most of them have no living lineage—the placoderms, the acanthodiians, and the vast majority of the agnathans. I am including various people or other-animal models as scale references—it will become clear that many of these animals were very, very small. And a few were very, very large!

One many of the figures are shown with the Bullyland salmon, because I messed up. Just pretend it is a Bullyland trout (Salmo trutta, (which would be about 16cm in real life) which is what I meant to do. Otherwise, the scales are fairly close to the modern fish or people they are shown with.

I will break it into two threads—first, the two jawed groups (gnathostomes) that are both entirely extinct, and work to the more primitive (and long-lived!) agnathans in a follow up post!

ACANTHODII:
”Spiny Sharks”

Probably the smallest group of totally-extinct fishes, these small fishes represent a group of fish that, in some form, led to the chondrichthyans—the sharks, rays and chimaera (plus their extinct relatives). For this reason, the group is sometimes referred to as “stem-sharks”.

Taxonomically, the Acanthodii is a paraphyletic group, since it does not include all of its descendants (the chondrichthyans), but instead acts as a convenient group to describe these fish. Overall, they are distinctive for their scales (similar to those of gars); streamlined bodies, heterocercal tails and stout spines on the leading edge of their fins (hence, the name ‘spiny sharks’). Also notable—many had several extra pairs of spined fins along their bellies.
Found in deposits around the world, the earliest fossils date from the Silurian (with some potential scales from the Ordovician) in marine waters, they diversified into freshwater and swamps in the Devonian and Carboniferous, and the group went extinct at the end of the Permian (~250Ma).
As far as toys go…there aren’t many. Two, to be exact. One has shown up many times; the sets it comes in makes me think Prior may be the original source (although I haven’t seen one) and can be found in several colours—I have seen grey, pink and green (and I had brown ones as a kid). The other, a more curved one cast entirely in solid plastic, is from US Toys and has shown up in bright pink and bright green (I only have the pink one).

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All of these represent a version of Climatius, but lack the belly spines are not paired, just a single row.
Front L-R: 1 version of the grey model; the pink version (I had one other once—the paint was completely different).
Back L-R: Other version of grey model; hot pink USToys model

Aaaaannnddd…that’s it. I am not aware of any others. Maybe a 3d printed one somewhere?

PLACODERMI
Plated Jawed Fish:

Sort of like the Acanthodii, placoderms are also paraphyletic—because it is likely that, as a group, their descendants include the bony fish (which means they include the tetrapods—so instead of thinking of yourself as a lungfish descendant, think of yourself as a Bothriolepis descendant!)
Placoderms were a very diverse if short-lived group of fishes, found around the world from the Silurian (~430Ma) to the Devonian (~360 Ma). In that time they diversified into somewhere between 7 and 10 distinct orders, with a wide range of shapes, habits, habitats, diets and sizes. In fact, one of them is famous for it’s size—Dunkleosteus, the most famous placoderm, may have reached over 30 metres long (it’s an estimate—all that is known is the ridiculous skull) and it was probably the first true giant pelagic predator in the seas. But at the same time, a closely related species (Titanichthys) was a similar size, but was probably a filter feeder—getting to that niche several hundred million years before the first filter feeding whales!

But most are small, and were possibly cumbersome, bottom-hugging animals. Their heavy body plating was likely a good defense, but may have also been a detriment when faced with predators (take note of their short time on earth—they disappeared as sharks and large bony fish began to arrive, either as predators or competitors).

Not all groups are represented as figures (only 3 from what I have). And only a very few taxa are represented as figures.

Antiarchi

A strange group of heavily armoured placoderms, often with jointed, plated fins.

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Three versions of Bothriolepis, from Kaiyodo:
Front L-R: Purple Dinotales Series 1 version; Brown Dinotales Series 1v2 version; CapsuleQ Paleozoic series version on base.

Rhenanida

A even stranger group of placoderms, which had armour made up of a mosaic of small scales or tubercles that may not have been fused. As a group, these placoderms were flattened like rays and patrolled sea bottom habitats.

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The only one I know of--Gemuendina, from Shapeways, unpainted.

Arthrodira

The group that most people think of when they think of placoderms. IF they do, I suppose.

The group as a whole is identified by a joint in their armour between their head and their neck. This allowed them to not only open their jaw, but to tilt back their skull at the same time, giving a larger bite surface. And it was quite a bite—as with all placoderms, they didn’t have teeth. Instead, they used sharpened plates around their mouths as slicing surfaces!

As mentioned, Dunkleosteus is easily the best known of the arthrodires (and placoderms) but overall this is the most diverse order of placoderms, many of which are quite small, and they ranged in seas, in diverse niches, around the world. This diversity began in the earliest Devonian, and the group was extinct by the end of the Devonian (~415Ma – 360Ma).

Rolfosteus
A tiny, long-nosed placoderm!

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To scale with a Brown trout (if I’d used it…) Rolfosteus only got to 15 cm long! This one is from the Yowies Lost Kingdom series.

Variety of smaller arthrodires

There are a very few other models of other arthrodires, generally mid-size species that, while active, were not likely as predatory as Dunkleosteus. These are to scale with a Bullyland Powan, a European whitefish that can get up to 38cm.

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Clockwise from bottom left: Yowies Lost Kingdom Mcnamaraspis; Yowies Lost Kingdom Groenlandaspis; Prehistoric Panorama Coccosteus (it is id’d as a Dunkleosteus, but the skull just doesn’t really look enough like one) ; Prehistoric Panorama Groendlandaspis (although it kind of looks more like Bothriolepis in some ways).

Dunkleosteus

The big one—both in real size, and in figure form. I know that I don’t have every one of these, and I’m okay with that! This is the first placoderm model where it was possible to have them line up against human scale models. Although it is interesting, it’s good that it went extinct.

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Kaiyodo Dinotales Series 7 skull

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Kaiyodo Dinotales Series 2 (it is notable that Japanese models tend to use the lunate tail fin of a large, fast predator, instead of the more typical long, pointed tail fin of the smaller arthrodires).

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The new Schleich model (complete with sturgeon-like scutes that have never been found on an arthrodire, and a jaw that opens, but doesn’t allow the skull to also lift. Missed opportunity Schleich).

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L-R Favorite Soft Model on base; the Wild Safari Dinos & Prehistoric Life model (probably still the best representation overall—including painting the head to look like it was covered in skin that matched the rest of the body, instead of some heavy helmet of bone!)

As I said, there are several other models of Dunkleosteus—Sean Cooper made a model, there is an even bigger Favorite vinyl model, and Kaiyodo made a new skull as part of it’s Paleozoic series. There is also an Animal Kaiser figure, a few Shapeways/3D models, and my son even has a tiny one in a snow globe!

So until next time, when the Agnathans make their appearance!

***BONUS MESSAGE as I'm doing this, I thought I'd mention my 'wants' thread--where I am especially looking for a couple of fish, including the Panini lamprey and the new Yowies pupfish. Just throwing that out there! Even if someone in Europe is thinking of getting the Panini set, but would be willing to give up the lamprey!***

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:28 pm

This is amazing affraid
Apart from two of the Dunkleosteuses I never heard of any of them before !! Very Happy

Thankyou very much for the heaps of information and wonderful pictures flower Applause


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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:21 pm

SUSANNE wrote:
This is amazing affraid
Apart from two of the Dunkleosteuses I never heard of any of them before !!  Very Happy

Thankyou very much for the heaps of information and wonderful pictures  flower  Applause


You are welcome! It was of course fun to do--and helps me sort out exactly what I have (every time I do this stuff, my databse ges more specific and more complicated!)

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:45 am

Yes, the way is to save money in fish books and read your topics instead. The money, we all know how to use. Laughing
Incredibly interesting, OK, I already forgot the most part of what I've read but I have the chance of reading it again. Laughing Once more, I hope you get the Panini and Yowie. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:20 am

Roger wrote:
Yes, the way is to save money in fish books and read your topics instead. The money, we all know how to use. Laughing
Incredibly interesting, OK, I already forgot the most part of what I've read but I have the chance of reading it again. Laughing Once more, I hope you get the Panini and Yowie. Very Happy

Me too--especially the Panini, since it would help round out the next post (there aren't a lot of agnatha figures!). That one will wait until some other things show up though!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:18 pm

Very nice collection of prehistoric fish! Most of these are new to me. I've heard of armored placoderms but this is my first look at them up close. I never new this group also came in a stingray like variety.

I think my favorite is your blue Dunkleosteus. As you say, he should probably not have exposed armor, but I love how sleek and predatory he looks. He and the safari version almost look like two separate species.
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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:35 am

Well, I don't have the planned Agnathan post ready...but I thought I would share the latest Coelacanth find! It's actually my son's. Because it's ridicuous.

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That is the huge Vinyl Favorite coelacanth! It is next to the Ancient Fishes Favorite coelacanth, for a sense of the scale...and a tiny Colorata one and Safari toob diver as well, for fun!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:29 am

Very nice :)

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:12 am

Does ridiculous means huge? Laughing I think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wants a pair of coelacanths. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:14 am

Roger wrote:
Does ridiculous means huge? Laughing  I think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wants a pair of coelacanths. Wink

Well, in this case, it's just ridiculous that such a huge coelacanth exists!

And yes, that pair should be in that that thread. If I'd used the Colorata lunch-box coelacanth figure as well, it would have been two pairs of two sizes!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:53 am

An opportunity to update the paddlefishes! Another 3d-print (unpainted--bottom, right), and a model on a base, made by Phil Ferrel (middle, on the left)!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:30 am

So many nice paddlefishes :)

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:41 am

Very beautyful and unique collection cheers

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PostSubject: Agnathans! Finally!   Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:21 am

So here is the next group of all (mostly) extinct fossil fishes—although for some, fishes may not quite be the right word! It starts to get blurry for a few, which are almost fish, but maybe not. Sorry for the delay…I was waiting for one of them, and it just kind of got away from me!

These are of course, the Agnatha. In the modern day we have lampreys and hagfish, but at the very beginning of animal evolution, in the early Cambrian, it all started with this large, and far more diverse, group of chordates/vertebrates. To start, they were kind of worm-ish, save for their segmented musculature; soon after, as they evolved, we got more fish-like animals that did not have jaws (hence the name, agnatha) and soon many evolved a series of plates along their bodies, as protection from the large aquatic predators of the time. Many species also evolved a variety of spines and other processes off of their heads and torsos. Over time, they also evolved heavy shields over their heads.

The agnatha have been broken into various groups, revised, revisited, and revised again. The modern form are very likely very derived compared to the ancestral stock, having become very well-adapted to a world of jawed animals. The majority were extinct by the Devonian or before, when more capable predators started appearing and outcompeting them.

I have them grouped into three sections—‘cephalochordates’, which are the proto-fish; ‘ostracoderms’, which are the majority of the fossil ‘plated’ agnathans; and the ‘cylcostomata’, which are the modern agnathans. A fourth distinct group, the Conodonts, is not represented by any toy models (that I am aware of). Maybe eventually? They are kind of interesting, and have been very important as fossils for stratigraphy. Plus, their research history is really neat—for the longest time all we had were small teeth, often in organized patterns—but it wasn’t until some fortunate soft-tissue fossils (from Scotland, I think) did we know what they looked like—in the late 1990s!

Again, I have tried to include figures for scale; all of these animals are small. And again, one of the figures used for scale is the Bullyland salmon, because I messed up. Just pretend it is a Bullyland trout (Salmo trutta, (which would be about 72cm in real life) which is what I meant to do. Not sure why I used that at all, since should be way larger compared to the aganthans! Otherwise, the scales are fairly close to the modern fish.

One thing about this group—there are very few figures. For once, though, there are more fossil species figures than modern—but that isn’t saying much.

CEPHALOCHORDATES:
The earliest chordates/proto-fishes

These are creatures that represent the real beginnings of where the vertebrates—all of them—began. Kind of non-descript, but they do have a slightly fishy look, which makes sense. Of course, their physiology is even more primitive, but it was the start after all. They are found in Cambrian deposits in places like China and Canada.

They aren’t really agnathans—it just seems like a good place to start. Before even the agnathans!

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Some of the earliest forms compared with a modern guppy (from Marmit)
L-R: ROM Pikaia, Prehistoric Panorama Pikaia; Yujin NHK Miracle Planet Haikouella

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A little more derived, although smaller—the Feves ceramic Myllokunmingia compared with the FaunaFigures African Butterflyfish

OSTRACODERMS
Pteraspidomorphii:
As a group, ‘OSTRACODERM’ is often used to group the fossil agnathans. It literally means ‘bony skin’, and refers to the variety of plates, scutes or embedded bony scales in the skin. Overall, there are not a lot of figures. Some of the ones that I have are also found as 3D printable models. But given the wide range of species and morphologies, there are a lot more potential figures that could be made.

The first group, the Pteraspidomorphs, are the earliest. They are notable for heavy shields over their heads, with sucking-adapted mouths at the terminal (very front) point of their heads. Most were probably awkward swimmers, bottom-dwelling animals that sifted for food in the substrate. These agnathans were found in near shore marine (and possibly freshwater) environments from the early Ordovician to the late Devonian.

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L-R: Shapeways unpainted Doryaspis; Dinotales Series 2 Pteraspis; Starlux Drepanaspis; Yowies Lost Kingdom Arandaspis compared with a Bullyland Trout

Cephalaspidomorphii

Another group of armoured agnathans. These agnathans typically have a more well-developed head shield, and a series of grooves along the sides, forming a lateral line. Unlike pteraspidomorphs, the mouth was surrounded by a number of plates, allowing the lips to move but not bite. They were also probably better swimmers than the pteraspidomorphs, although most likely still awkward bottom dwellers. As a group they were found from the Silurian to Devonian; lampreys are sometimes included with the group, which would of course extend the time range of the group to the present day. I’m not doing that here.

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L-R: Kaiyodo Dinotales Series 3/DinoMania Hemicyclaspis; Shapeways 3D printed Hoelaspis (unpainted); Shapeways 3D printed Hemicyclaspis (unpainted). Compared with Bullyland trout.

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L-R: Shapeways 3D printed Tauraspis (unpainted); Starlux Cephalaspis (unpainted). Compared with FaunaFigures African Butterflyfish.

CYCLOSTOMATA
The cyclostomes are the modern agnathans—the hagfish and lampreys. Unlike the fossil species that we all know, the modern animals have no outer scales, plates or any other sold exterior. In fact, hagfish are well-known for not only being squishy, but being outright slimy!

It is difficult to be sure of exactly how far back fossil cyclostomes existed. Earliest fossils are know from the earliest Devonian. Their overall soft bodies and cartilaginous skeletons are not much for fossilization.

Myxini—the Hagfishes:
The more primitive-seeming of the cyclostomes, hagfish are deep-water scavengers found in the depths of most oceans, eating detritus and stripping down carcasses. They have quite the sense of smell, which is good since their eyes are fairly rudimentary. Weirdest of all—they have skulls but no vertebral columns!

Only one model appears to have been made of a hagfish, from my FaunaFigures Fishes line. Well, there is one other—several years ago a ‘slime hag’ toy was available—a flexible rubber hagfish packed in a plastic tub with a powder that became a tub of slime when water was added. I have seen a review on a site called [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], but that is it; I’ve never seen one available for sale.

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FaunaFigures Fishes White-Headed Hagfish Myxine ios. Compared with the huge vinyl Favorite Coelcanth for scale. Normally I try to take full, bright photos, but I decided to go with a darker, spot-lit photo to represent the deep oceans where both animals are found (although the hagfish is North Atlantic and the coelacanth is Indian ocean, so they’d never really meet!)

Petromyzontida/Hyperoartia—the Lampreys:
A slightly more advanced group of modern agnathans—lampreys are more familiar to people due to their distinct ring of teeth on a jawless mouth and slightly eel-like appearance, since they have distinct eyes and unpaired fins.  They are more likely to come in contact with people as they are at least sometimes found in freshwater. If nothing else, more people probably meet them through their traces—bloodied spots on fish, where a parasitic lamprey latched on for a meal. Not that all species are parasitic; some use their sucker mouths to grub through stream and lake bottoms for food. Some species can also use their sucker mouths to climb on rocks against a river flow.

Like hagfish, there aren’t many toys. Panini makes one, but I have yet to get hold of it. And of course, there is one in my FaunaFigures Fishes line…otherwise, yeah, that’s about it. Recently, the ‘Tully Monster’ Tullimonstrum was re-evaluated as a lamprey instead of a…mystery. But that was almost immediately disputed, so we’ll have to see if the couple of models of that animal should be included as well!

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FaunaFigures Fishes American Brook Lamprey Lethenteron appendix. Compared with the Bullyland trout for scale.

Okay…one other lamprey. An indeterminate species, attached to the back of a CollectA Pliosaurus. Given the Jurassic age of the sea reptile…I can’t find a reference to what lamprey species that could be.

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This time with a diver for scale…those would be big lampreys!

So that kind of runs down the ‘Ancient’ fishes up to this point. I have of course come across new ones in other groups over time, so I can update there when possible. But it gets pretty tough to find much new in these particular groups. Other than Asian arowana and coelacanths…There is some future of course—the new version of Replica Toy Fish intends to include a number of fitting species; and my own FF Fish line will also include others. So I can update as those develop.

…although, given recent research findings, it appears that I can probably do a post on Elopomorphs. Recent work indicates that as a group, the Tarpons, Eels, Deep-Sea spiny eels and Bonefishes fit in as the sister group to the rest of the Teleosts (rather than the Osteoglossomorphs, who are next up the line). Most of those groups aren’t done as figures…at all. Other than eels of course. And there are lots of those!

And, of course, there are a small number of the fossil species making their way into the market through companies like Paleozoo and 3D modeling like Shapeways. But right now the costs are often prohibitive for all but the most dedicated collectors. There are also several various figures from DeAgosinti and DiraMix of interesting fish species…they lack accuracy, but are interestingly different—and also maddeningly difficult to get hold of!

***And a note for help***Still looking for the Panini Lamprey! In case anyone comes across it. And the various DeAgostini and DiraMix figures…in case anyone can come across those at all***

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widukind

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:26 am

Very beautieful!

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:20 pm

Thankyou for a very interesting ..is the word Article? - about these early fishes Applause
I learned something new today, - hurraaayyy cheers

Your pictures are wonderful, and the comparisons to present day fish is extremely informative !!!

Well, - and of course not to forget : Such amazing and interesting models you have cheers

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:48 pm

I do really enjoy reading your fishy posts, Sean! As Susanne, I always learn something new. Very Happy
It is great to fish around with these netries and pictures. Very Happy
By the way, I really hope you can get these Panini and little chubby things, as you say, they're far from accurate but they do represent some interesting creatures. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: My 'Ancient Fishes' figures   Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:52 pm

Thanks everyone,

And yes, Roger, it would be nice to get hold of the squishy Italian figures--but so far I haven't heard of anyone able to get them. There must be someone from Italy out there who can help!

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