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 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino

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costicuba

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PostSubject: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Here it is !
Wonderful 218 Schleich model of One-Horned Rhino cheers

Yes, I know it is named Indian Rhinoceros, but I called it `` One-Horned Rhino``, because
I have mixed feelings, that maybe we can call it : Javan rhinoceros.
Of course, I`m not sure about that... scratch

I saw on other topic, that Megaptera suggested also that,
but Roger was clear with that :
``It surely doesn't look like a Javan rhinoceros what means Schleich hasn't messed their differences. A smaller Indian rhino, just it.``

Watching many photos of Javan Rhinos on Google, I really see this model also like Javan , but.... I`m very far away from expert Very Happy

So, my question is to all of you and especially to Roger :)
Why it can`t be Javan and what makes it clearly the Indian ? :)

Ok, now let`s see the some photos :

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Now, the only thing which is not correct and I don`t like on this model, is the very closed ears.
The distance between the ears, should be double on that.

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But, even with that flaw, it is a very charming rhino :)

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And a special photo for TAI Wink

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Of course, we have to see this model compared with other Indian Rhino model, so let`s see it with my favorite :
Safari Indian Rhino :

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The difference of the size is not so drastically, but as you can see, the Safari one is a bit bigger...

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All my photos would be very happy to be on TAI Laughing

Thank you for watching sunny



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Ana

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:15 pm

I think this is a very nice rhino and your photos are excellent! Thank you for sharing! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:10 pm

Beautieful rhino Kosta :)

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:24 pm

Thank you very much for the walkaround of this small one-horned rhino Kosta  Very Happy

I have a bias for this animal and , even if my shelves are definitevely too crowded, I'm not sure I will resist to add one more  Wink

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Here it is !
Wonderful 218 Schleich model of One-Horned Rhino cheers

Yes, I know it is named Indian Rhinoceros, but I called it `` One-Horned Rhino``, because
I have mixed feelings, that maybe we can call it : Javan rhinoceros.
Of course, I`m not sure about that...  scratch

I saw on other topic, that Megaptera suggested also that,
but Roger was clear with that :
``It surely doesn't look like a Javan rhinoceros what means Schleich hasn't messed their differences. A smaller Indian rhino, just it.``

Watching many photos of Javan Rhinos on Google, I really see this model also like Javan , but.... I`m very far away from expert  Very Happy

So, my question is to all of you and especially to Roger :)
Why it can`t be Javan and what makes it clearly the Indian ? :)

Well, Javan rhinos are sightly smaller than their Indian cousins, they have proportionally a smaller head and looser, less apparent skin folds which "still form a saddle shape over the shoulder".

Here is Andrew's Javan rhino on Shapeways (with the saddle)

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And here is a real javan rhino
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My conclusion is, the new Schleich rhino could be a javan rhino (or an Indian rhino) and it isn't probably the only one Wink

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costicuba

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you Anna and Andreas sunny

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And here is a real javan rhino
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My conclusion is, the new Schleich rhino could be a javan rhino (or an Indian rhino) and it isn't probably the only one Wink

Thank you for this comment Kiki :)
I`m happy that you also like this model.
This is on of the best photos, which I also saw on internet :)
It look`s to me like our Schleich friend ...a lot :)

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Megaptera

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:13 pm

The problem is, that the Javan Rhinoceros looks exactly like an Indian Rhinoceros but it is smaller. It has nearly the same size as a Black Rhinoceros. And the Javan Rhinoceros has the smallest horn of all Rhinoceros species. The horn of the Schleich Rhinoceros has the same shape like the animals, that I have seen of some rare pictures.
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Megaptera

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:19 pm

Are you sure that this is a Javan Rhinoceros on this picture? scratch
It looks more like an Indian one. The horn is quite long.
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Are you sure that this is a Javan Rhinoceros on this picture? scratch
It looks more like an Indian one. The horn is quite long.

Laughing Laughing Who knows?

Here is a real Javan rhino... for sure Wink

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Megaptera

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Ok, thank you. And this one looks really like the Rhino from Schleich.
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Gosh ! I missed this wonderful walkaroun ! I love that rhino ! cheers

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costicuba

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:22 pm

Thank you for all your comments friends sunny

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Gosh ! I missed this wonderful walkaroun ! I love that rhino ! cheers

cheers cheers cheers

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:11 pm

This is a really nice model indeed for a Schleich :) We sometimes have surprises ! And your pictures are great ! Very Happy Congrats

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:31 am

Thanks for great walk around Kosta. I like this figure despite the excessive texturing but I still like Safari's best. One thing I am sure, Safari's figure never presented any kind of ambiguousness, everyone knows it is an Indian rhino. The Schleich figure is not so accurate as an Indian rhino but I still think it is. As well as I think the first picture Christophe presented, is of an Indian rhino.
I will point only the relevant things to the sculpt once the size is subjective when comparing figures not made in scale.
Almost everything is more conspicuous in an Indian rhino than in a Javan. Folds are thicker, ears are much bigger, horn is longer and show often a little curvature that we don't see always in Javan rhinos. Even the saddle is different, while Indians are often concave as real saddles, Javan's tend to be straighter. The skin hanging from the neck is also more conspicuous on Indian rhinos and what to tell about the bumps on legs and shoulders? I think only the prehensile mouth is more conspicuous on Java's, we can see it very well in Andrews's rendition. Even their color are different, while Indian rhinos are a kind of silver grey, Javan's are a "cloudy" grey.
Considering that I am as blind as a rhino, I may be easily wrong. Maybe Andrew, Philipp or other members could be of better help here. I enjoy the discussion about the exact species of the figures and I never have any problem assuming that I am wrong. Very Happy

Indian rhino
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Javan rhino
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:58 am

Thank you for this comment Roger :)

The reason, why I`m asking this question is, because I`m also trying to learn more about the Javan Rhinoceros :)
And of course, because I want to think, that I have a Javan Rhino on my collection Laughing

I think, Kiki posted this photo , because on Google serch, this photo is named : Javan Rhino :)
...but of course, this can be wrong...

I`m 100% sure, that the Schleich sculptor wanted to present to us an Indian Rhino... that is for sure.
But because of the difference of the size with the Safari one.... I was thinking...Can I call the Schleich one - a Javan ... Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Thanks for great walk around Kosta. I like this figure despite the excessive texturing but I still like Safari's best. One thing I am sure, Safari's figure never presented any kind of ambiguousness, everyone knows it is an Indian rhino. The Schleich figure is not so accurate as an Indian rhino but I still think it is. As well as I think the first picture Christophe presented, is of an Indian rhino.
I will point only the relevant things to the sculpt once the size is subjective when comparing figures not made in scale.
Almost everything is more conspicuous in an Indian rhino than in a Javan. Folds are thicker, ears are much bigger, horn is longer and show often a little curvature that we don't see always in Javan rhinos. Even the saddle is different, while Indians are often concave as real saddles, Javan's tend to be straighter. The skin hanging from the neck is also more conspicuous on Indian rhinos and what to tell about the bumps on legs and shoulders? I think only the prehensile mouth is more conspicuous on Java's, we can see it very well in Andrews's rendition. Even their color are different, while Indian rhinos are a kind of silver grey, Javan's are a "cloudy" grey.
Considering that I am as blind as a rhino, I may be easily wrong. Maybe Andrew, Philipp or other members could be of better help here. I enjoy the discussion about the exact species of the figures and I never have any problem assuming that I am wrong. Very Happy

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Javan rhino
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Thank you for this comment Roger :)

The reason, why I`m asking this question is, because I`m also trying to learn more about the Javan Rhinoceros :)
And of course, because I want to think, that I have a Javan Rhino on my collection Laughing

I think, Kiki posted this photo , because on Google serch, this photo is named : Javan Rhino :)
...but of course, this can be wrong...

I`m 100% sure, that the Schleich sculptor wanted to present to us an Indian Rhino... that is for sure.
But because of the difference of the size with the Safari one.... I was thinking...Can I call the Schleich one - a Javan ... Very Happy  


So, what to say? Here was my conclusion: "My conclusion is, the new Schleich rhino could be a javan rhino (or an Indian rhino) and it isn't probably the only one Wink".

Making a Javan rhino toy is uneasy because, except the size, the differences with the Indian rhino aren't so relevant. We are talking about grey shades, size of heads, ears, folds or saddles on shoulder: Peanuts.

Look at Andrews pic, we see a perfect Javan rhino because everything (size of heads, ears, folds or saddles on shoulder) can let think it is a Javan rhino. The most important thing is Andrew named it a Javan rhino male.

Now, if Andrew named it Indian rhino, we probably say it is a very good Indian rhino and maybe someone would ask if it could be used as an Indian rhino. I'm not sure I could answer: Absolutely not!

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Now what about the second pics I used  Suspect What is it exactly? Well, it is a trap... With one horn  Laughing

I used this pic for a good reason, it is the second showed when you google for Javan rhino and it is the fourth when you do the same for Indian rhino... Funny no?

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Schleich is an ambiguous brand, far more than Safari Ltd, and they made an ambiguous "One horned rhino".

So what about the name? Schleich named it Panzernashorn which means Indian rhino. What about the size, it seems smaller than the previous Schleich Indian rhinos. What about the size of the head compared to the body? It is far smaller than previous Schleich Indian rhinos and we have to remember Schleich is the Big head company. What about the ears? Not bigger than the older ones but it si hard to tell if they are smaller. What about the horn? Smaller than the previous rhinos. What about the folds and shoulders? Nothing really significant. What about the colour variations (grey): Meh!

So Kosta, can you call it a Javan rhino? If you compare with other Schleich model, you can. If you read Schleich name, you can't Wink  In the past I remember a Thomson's gazelle who became a Cuvier's gazelle and a bat who changed its species several time.

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:44 pm

Christophe is right and confirms the figure is somewhat ambiguous. There's another big problem and it may serve as an excuse to the sculptor. I've found the discussed picture described as Javan rhinoceros in some websites while it was labeled Indian rhinoceros in others. I've found some more pictures with both designations. I also found that the statitics of how many Javan rhinoceros existed in captivitiy are considered doubtful once, in private collections, some registered as Javan rhinos, were likely Indian rhinos and the other way round. They are not easy to distinguish and obviously, Kosta, you can use your Indian rhino as a Javan rhino. As Kiki pointed, the differences it show with previous one tend to approach it to the Javan species and, when compared with the Safari rhino, it surely pass easily as a Javan. The most disturbing feature may be the fact that the Schleich figure seems completely covered in warts. The figure looks really great but, when examined after some research, we conclude it is another not very scientifically accurate figure. However, it is also good to not forget that it may be a female. Female Indian rhinos also have smaller horns, less conspicuous folds, thus, closer in appearance with Javan's. I'd really love to see a vis-a-vis comparison picture with the Papo Indian rhino.
Here one more old picture of a Javan rhino in a Zoo, picture of a trusteable website and confirmed by experts. Very Happy This one surely doesn't look like an Indian. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:34 am

This discussion become more and more interesting.
Kiki and Roger, thank you for that :)

So, for now, we can summarize, that we have a Schleich model, which give us opportunity
to call it in a different ways.
Some collectors can stay strait with the Schleich name - Indian Rhinoceros,
others, can use it as female Indian Rhino .....
or others can go further away, using it as Javan Rhinoceros :)

That`s great Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:36 am

I also think, that this one is a Javan Rhinoceros. By the way, there was a subspecies of Javan Rhinoceros, which was called the Lesser Indian Rhinoceros.
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:02 pm

Well, I decided to take some more time reading about these horned rhinos, mainly focusing in the differences between female Indian rhinos and Javan rhinos.
The enlarged bib, horn  and more conspicuous folding I mentioned before is only noticiable when comparing males of both species.
Smaller ears, had or eve general size are valid to determine the species but, as it is a question of proportions, it may not always be easy to spot.
Though, I've found something considered essential to determine the exact species.

"The form of the posterior cervical fold (lateral shoulder fold) in R. sondaicus, continuing up over the nape of the neck forming an independent shield shaped like a saddle, is diagnostic; in the Indian rhinoceros, the nape shield is continuous with the larger shoulder shield (Sclater 1874, 1876b:plates XCV and XCVI).Mature "

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Basically, on top of the neck, we see a clear division between the nape and shoulder shields on Javan rhinos while on Indian rhinos they look fused .

Well, I think the picture below shows clearly that Schleich's is an Indian rhino, we see that the fold that supposed to divid both shields is interrupted on top.

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On the other hand, we see clearly on Andrew's rendition, that the shape of the shields was respected. Even the tail, that is usually fully visible on Javan rhinos contrarily to Indian rhinos, when on side view, is respected on Andrew's design.
I don't really want to remove you, Kosta, from enjoying a Javan rhino in your collection but I think it is interesting for all of us that we try to find the exact species Schleich figure represents and it is good to learn about the subject! Very Happy

Notice also the shields and hanging tails on Bullyland and K&M Javan rhinos.

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I really regret of never doing any effort to get the Bullyland Javan rhinoceros, the figure is not surely spectacular but now I see that besides the shield and tail things, it has no bib and an clearly extended upper lip.  Sad

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:49 pm

This info is actually very helpful. Thank you for finding it Roger Applause

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


Basically, on top of the neck, we see a clear division between the nape and shoulder shields on Javan rhinos while on Indian rhinos they look fused .



I don't really want to remove you, Kosta, from enjoying a Javan rhino in your collection but I think it is interesting for all of us that we try to find the exact species Schleich figure represents and it is good to learn about the subject! Very Happy


This is exactly why I like this discussion Roger, mainly between you and Kiki :) .. To find the true Wink
For sure I`m not a kid, who stamps with foot, trying to get what he want Laughing In this case, to call my Schleich rhino - Javan. Very Happy

I prefer, to know that I`ll be wrong, trying to do that ... Wink

So, thank you very much for your time to find this info :)

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This info is actually very helpful. Thank you for finding it Roger  Applause

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


Basically, on top of the neck, we see a clear division between the nape and shoulder shields on Javan rhinos while on Indian rhinos they look fused .



I don't really want to remove you, Kosta, from enjoying a Javan rhino in your collection but I think it is interesting for all of us that we try to find the exact species Schleich figure represents and it is good to learn about the subject! Very Happy


This is exactly why I like this discussion Roger, mainly between you and Kiki :) .. To find the true Wink
For sure I`m not a kid, who stamps with foot, trying to get what he want Laughing In this case, to call my Schleich rhino - Javan.  Very Happy

I prefer, to know that I`ll be wrong, trying to do that ...  Wink

So, thank you very much for your time to find this info :)

You're welcome, Kosta! Very Happy So, I am a kid and a weird kid, when [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] suggested it to be a Javan, I jumped immediately to Google to find if there was any chance Schleich's was mixing it. Oh, I really wished this beautiful sculpt was of a Javan instead. More I researched, more convinced I was it was not. When ambiguous looking figures are made, I tend to think it is the most common species although I wish it was not. On the other hand, , just recently, Megaptera suggested the Schleich gharial to be a Sunda gharial instead of a Ganges and I am tending to agree due to the good points presented to justify it. Another weird thing is that some years ago, I used to find good excuses to get a figure and now I find excuses to not get. That's not good but selectiveness is mandatory these days in my collecting hobby. Another weird point, this Schleich Indian rhino, is a much better figure than the Bullyland Javan rhino. It is obvious but it is good to remember that they have almost 20 years of difference. Though, the fact that Bully is a Javan, turns it quite interesting.
Once you show the Safari's and Schleich's, you could call the former a greater one-horned rhino and the latter a lesser one-horned rhino. Laughing It is a truth because Schleich's is smaller but it is also another name for a Javan rhino. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:02 am

Maybe it is the Lesser Indian Rhinoceros. It has really a similar shape like the Indian Rhinoceros. But this subspecies of Javan Rhinoceros is extinct for almost 50 years.
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:04 am

Maybe I can also asked some researchers of the Zoological Institute...
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 pm

Just for info : I made a little walkaround of Bullyland's Javan rhinoceros [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:21 pm

I am not a mammalogist, but I think this is ok for an Indian rhino. Size and geographic location are the best way to separate them, both of which are moot points in a toy figure :)
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Maybe it is the Lesser Indian Rhinoceros. It has really a similar shape like the Indian Rhinoceros. But this subspecies of Javan Rhinoceros is extinct for almost 50 years.

You could ask an expert, everyone is welcomed here. Though, I thought it was clear now that Schleich figure is an Indian rhino (R. unicornis). As most of the features are undistinguishable from a female Indian rhino to a Javan rhino, they tell that the nape shield is an efficient way to identify them. While Javan rhino has a nape shield clearly divided, Indian rhinos have them merged on top forming a single one.  Please check the arrows on Bullyland figure, you can see both shields clearly divided. You cannot see it on Schleich's figure, you can see the typical Indian rhino shield instead.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Just for info : I made a little walkaround of Bullyland's Javan rhinoceros [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Smile  

Thanks a lot Susanne for accepting my request. Sometimes it is good to remember how innovative was Bullyland in the past. cheers

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Megaptera

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:53 pm

Yes, furthermore, the female Javan Rhinoceros don't have a real horn.
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Just for info : I made a little walkaround of Bullyland's Javan rhinoceros [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Smile  

cheers cheers cheers

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PeGe

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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino   Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 pm

Indian Rhino. Roger explained pretty well,...

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2018 Schleich - wonderful Indian Rhino
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