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 CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family

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pawprintzinsnow



Country/State : United States
Age : 26
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:34 pm

My papo white lion family will enjoy having these guys in their pride as well. The cubs are the best.
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Bongo



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:01 pm

In my Hometown, White lions and Tigers are the symbol for that what they are-the product of termention of animals !
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Andy DC



Country/State : Ireland
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:23 am

I don't understand everyone's dislike of white lions. They are a naturally occurring variation, just like melanistic cats and the normal Tawny variation. You're theory of them being kept solely for entertainment purposes is not totally true. Every animal in a zoo or captive setting is kept for this purpose, but the main goal is education and conservation which is done through entertainment. Conseration/Education and entertainment go hand in hand in the 21st Century.
We do not keep endangered species simply to look at them for our own enjoyment, we want to reintroduce them into the wild, examples include the Scimitar Horned Oryx and the Golden Lion Tamarin who have also been reintroduced.

The white lion is practically extinct in the wild due to habitat loss and hunting, but if we look at other species like the European Bison we can see it too suffered near extinction, it's population was brought down to less then 50 after WWI, and all were held in zoos. Was this not the same as you're point, surely some genetic abnormalities occurred in the E. Bison, yet through captive specimens it has been reintroduced and numbers in the thousands today. This example is only different from the white lions case by the species/colour.

Also the Amur leopard as a species is severly inbred due to it's small population which has led to certain abnormalities, yet I am sure you do not take such a dislike to them as you do with the white lions, humans have affected both by reducing their genetic pool, so why should we take a greater dislike to the white lions, the only difference is that the white lions are in zoos, which is probably safer for them and easier to manage, in terms of genetics and breeding, I am sure zoos spend a lot of time and effort matching pairs to ensure best matches, but when the gene pool is so small, it can be hard!

To conclude, white lions are like every other endangered animal, simply because they look nice and unusual is not a reason to slate them, althouh we keep them in captivity their conservation is the main goal.
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WILLYBACOMAN



Country/State : Zwolle, The Netherlands
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:36 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't understand everyone's dislike of white lions. They are a naturally occurring variation, just like melanistic cats and the normal Tawny variation. You're theory of them being kept solely for entertainment purposes is not totally true. Every animal in a zoo or captive setting is kept for this purpose, but the main goal is education and conservation which is done through entertainment. Conseration/Education and entertainment go hand in hand in the 21st Century.
We do not keep endangered species simply to look at them for our own enjoyment, we want to reintroduce them into the wild, examples include the Scimitar Horned Oryx and the Golden Lion Tamarin who have also been reintroduced.

The white lion is practically extinct in the wild due to habitat loss and hunting, but if we look at other species like the European Bison we can see it too suffered near extinction, it's population was brought down to less then 50 after WWI, and all were held in zoos. Was this not the same as you're point, surely some genetic abnormalities occurred in the E. Bison, yet through captive specimens it has been reintroduced and numbers in the thousands today. This example is only different from the white lions case by the species/colour.

Also the Amur leopard as a species is severly inbred due to it's small population which has led to certain abnormalities, yet I am sure you do not take such a dislike to them as you do with the white lions, humans have affected both by reducing their genetic pool, so why should we take a greater dislike to the white lions, the only difference is that the white lions are in zoos, which is probably safer for them and easier to manage, in terms of genetics and breeding, I am sure zoos spend a lot of time and effort matching pairs to ensure best matches, but when the gene pool is so small, it can be hard!

To conclude, white lions are like every other endangered animal, simply because they look nice and unusual is not a reason to slate them, althouh we keep them in captivity their conservation is the main goal.

I think you miss the point here Andy, sorry...
Variations in species like melanistic cats, or even tawny will survive in nature, as their colour still gives them protection in the sense of camouflage.
You know that mother nature tries a lot of things through evolution, what is good stays alive, what not is vanishing.
Normally white tigers and lions wouldn't survive without human intervention!
At least not for a long time.
The animals that were brought almost to extinction through human activity, hunting and so on, and were brought back to numbers that let the species survive is a totall different story.
That there are defects because of the small gene-pool is obvious, and it is a matter of good taste and sence to recognise the defect in species, and decide if they really should keep this species what it is today...

I don't think, we want to see this in the open, and for that reason it is kept backwards in zoo's...

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It is not that i dont like white tigers or lions, i think they look beautifull!
But they shouldn't be alive in those huge numbers, and specially not for human pleasure.
I think it would be much more interesting to find out, why these cats do have the gene, and why it occurs from time to time, because everything has its reason in nature... Rolling Eyes

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Andy DC



Country/State : Ireland
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:19 pm

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Yes mother nature created these variations and the most suitable ones stay alive, but you're forgetting that white lions survived in Africa for thousands of years by themselves, only human intervention has caused them to dwindle, so I don't see hoe you can say "Normally white tigers and lions wouldn't survive without human intervention!" they managed it for thousands of years.

I have seen the images you have shown many times. And yes, we wouldn't see them in the wild, because mother nature would kill them, just like any other disabled animal. Everyone against white lions and tigers relies on that particular individual to back up their case, and to be honest it's not really enough. He's probably the result of careless breeding by a private owner. You could probably find one animal from every species that has been disfigured somehow, yet you would not argue against their current status.
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PeGe



Country/State : Germany
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Yes mother nature created these variations and the most suitable ones stay alive, but you're forgetting that white lions survived in Africa for thousands of years by themselves, only human intervention has caused them to dwindle, so I don't see hoe you can say "Normally white tigers and lions wouldn't survive without human intervention!" they managed it for thousands of years.

I have seen the images you have shown many times. And yes, we wouldn't see them in the wild, because mother nature would kill them, just like any other disabled animal. Everyone against white lions and tigers relies on that particular individual to back up their case, and to be honest it's not really enough. He's probably the result of careless breeding by a private owner. You could probably find one animal from every species that has been disfigured somehow, yet you would not argue against their current status.

Sorry, but i have to disappoint you. As a result of inbreeding and financial interests, at least the tigers aren't of a pure subspecies anymore, they're mixed up. And that picture doesn't show an exception. But one that was raised,...
Problems with eyes and skin plus deformation of bones etc. are more common.
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Andy DC



Country/State : Ireland
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:37 am

Sorry, but we must agree to disagree on this subject, I take your points but still believe otherwise.
It seems people are either for or against this topic, no inbetweem, sorry!
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WILLYBACOMAN



Country/State : Zwolle, The Netherlands
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:14 am

I don't agree with you again...
These lions didn't survive for thousands of years, but their genes did!
It is prooved that they die quickly normally, as they don't have the natural colour.
Or abbandoned by their mother, or just died because they had lack of food after they had the age to hunt for themself.
I think that is a main difference.
That is why i said, that they only still live by human intervention, otherwise they would disappear everytime shortly after they came to this world, in one or the other way...

These horrible pics of white tigers are not onlt there because of careless private breeders, but because they were interbred from the very first start anyway in any case, even going back to India...

Anyway, we don't have to agree on that, everybody has its right to his or her own opinion.
It is like you said, you like them or not.
Personally, i think that they are very beautifull animals, but they shouldn't be there in the numbers we have today, not even talking about interbreeding, and the fact that the white tiger is not a species at all after all anymore, or not even a sub-species.
All of this money could have been spend on the conservation of the last remaining (sub-)species of tigers instead of that. Wink
By the way, i am very interested in any variations that natural species produce through evolution, because that is the way that new species will appear eventually... Rolling Eyes

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Tupolew Tu-154



Country/State : Airport
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:57 pm

They looks very great. bounce
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landrover



Country/State : colombia
Age : 59
Joined : 2010-11-04
Posts : 1979

PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:51 am

:) :)

In many opportunities, animal is ugly in photos and is
very different really.
Therefore, it is not in the my shopping list
And I will wait, to see it in my hands.
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Bongo



Country/State : Germany
Age : 46
Joined : 2011-10-13
Posts : 351

PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:52 am

They look like the real ones-ugly. I feel Sorry for White Lions and White tigers, manmade , sick animals, ( or better to say, inbreeding cripples )just a few of them, the best looking, can be raised, made for making money.....

So the Brands should make the real white tigers and lions, like this one on the picture here in this thread, because this are the true white tigers and lions.
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WILLYBACOMAN



Country/State : Zwolle, The Netherlands
Age : 54
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:53 am

Well Bongo...
There is nothing wrong with making models of white lions and tigers, but...
They should make original models in the first place, and no cheap copies of already existing models, and secondly just because they should be illusive animals actually, like the Tasmanian tiger or the dodo, which were wiped of the face of the earth by us humans.
So that way every animal lover could see how they may have been looked, if they were still alive.
Unfortunatly they still are, not for the life of the animal, but the reason why they are still alive... Rolling Eyes Evil or Very Mad
The only fact why we humans stand over most animals, is because of our big brain, otherwise we would loose very big on every field! Wink
And were this big brain brought us today, we all know... Embarassed Crying or Very sad Sad

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PeGe



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:39 pm

It's very unlikely that "mother nature" would have ever given adult white or at least carriers of genes for white,
tigers the chance to meet some zoomix or siberian tigers to outspread the genes to breed with the founders again,....
Same with the white lions. they remain exceptions, some grow up to adults, most don't,...and what about spreading recessive genes,..? Very Happy
So this is cattle-poo,...
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WILLYBACOMAN



Country/State : Zwolle, The Netherlands
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:07 am

Exactly Philipp! Very Happy
As albino's occur a lot to, and they don't survive in most cases either, you could compare those white big cats with them... Rolling Eyes

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Andy DC



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Exactly Philipp! Very Happy
As albino's occur a lot to, and they don't survive in most cases either, you could compare those white big cats with them... Rolling Eyes

You cannot compare white lions with an albino animal. Albino animals suffer greatly from problems relating to sight, many are partially blind and thus are unable to hunt properly. They also suffer from skin problems associated with exposure to sunlight e.g. cancer. These two drastically reduce the lifespan of ALBINO animals.


The colour of white lions does not present these problems. Their eyesight is the same as tawny animals and there is no evidence of skin problems. Their coloration does not appear to disadvanatge their survival in any way. That is why White Lions have been reintroduced succesfully into the wild and thrive there.
They are not like ALBINO animals. The two traits are completely different!
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WILLYBACOMAN



Country/State : Zwolle, The Netherlands
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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:13 am

Tell me something i don't know Andy... Cool
I am like a walking animal-encyclopedia since i was 6 years old, and since i am almost 50 years now, you can understand what i might already know about animals.
I know the problems of albino's, and i ment only the white colours of those big cats, and they can't do really well without the help in any form from us humans!
Who told you those bedtime stories Andy?
You know well as i do, that that white colour doesn't work well in nature for a predatory big cat! cat
For me this discussion is closed, as you seem to be a huge fan of keeping these cats alive, even in nature, and there we will never meet! Wink

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Andy DC



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:53 pm

White ig cats may not fare well if they are albino. However I have not seen any evidence to suggest that white lions fair any differently than their tawny counterparts. Their numbers may be smaller due to the fact that their gene is recessive, but that doesn't mean they are less able to hunt or die early in life.

I would be happy to read any evidence you may have?
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WILLYBACOMAN



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:29 pm

I don't have any evidence, and i don't need to either, as i am not in front of a judge here... Laughing
We all know, that these genes occur in some wild cats from time to time, and maybe even for a reason, or for the reason, that these white colours were usefull in the past.
If these colours were really good in modern nature as it is today, we would see much more of them, and they wouldn't be so rare, don't you agree Andy? Rolling Eyes

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Andy DC



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:29 pm

I don't agree with that. The reason we see fewer of them is due to the fact that the gene for 'white coat' is recessive to the 'tawny coat' gene. Therefore if either parent is homozygous for the 'tawny coat' all offspring will be tawny, guaranteed. We only see these animals because some adult tawny lions are heterozygous and carry both genes, allowing some of the offspring to be 'white'. e.g.

T - Tawny coat (Dominant) t - White coat (recessive)

Parents: TT (Homozygous) x Tt (Heterozygous)
Gametes T , T X T , t

Offsrping (F1 Generation) : TT or Tt (All are tawny)

OR
Parents: TT (Homozygous) x tt (Homozygous)
Gametes T , T X t , t

Offsrping (F1 Generation) : All Tt (All are tawny, but carriers)

OR
Parents: Tt (Heterozygous) x Tt (Heterozygous)
Gametes T , t X T , t

Offsrping (F1 Generation) :
TT x 1 (tawny)
Tt x 2 (tawny, but carriers)
tt x 1 (white)

Their are other crosses like TT x TT (all tawny) and tt x tt 9alll white)In this way white lions don't occur often, although carriers occur, white lions themselves have a very small chance

Although it is recessive, that doesn't mean the gene is a 'bad' one. In nature many phenotypes of different varieties are seen. The ones that don't work generally die out. However the white lion is still around and sightings of them have been common for hundreds of years, if it were a trait that was not suitable for the population it would have been bred out by now, don't you think?
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WILLYBACOMAN



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:01 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
White big cats may not fare well if they are albino. However I have not seen any evidence to suggest that white lions fair any differently than their tawny counterparts. Their numbers may be smaller due to the fact that their gene is recessive, but that doesn't mean they are less able to hunt or die early in life.

I would be happy to read any evidence you may have?

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WILLYBACOMAN



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PostSubject: Re: CollectA 2012 Photos: White Lion Family   Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:15 am

It seems that you don't agree with much things with me, haha... Laughing
But that doesn't matter Andy, as i like young people that think and care about nature, and we need a younger generation that does that, since we oldtimers are dying out slowly... Shocked farao
And when all people would think the same, there wouldn't be much change on this world, and we would be probably stuck in the stone-age, it is in our genes to, to stay in this field.

I had genetics in the first class of highschool to, and i use it quit a lot, as i can use it very well for several reasons.
I agree that colours that aren't well suited in our nature or inviroment today, will almost vanish fast, as they came.
I think, you agree that the white tiger gene is different from that in white lions.
As you already said, in the case of the white lions, it occurs regularly, but as it is recessive as you mentioned to, it won't be much appearing.
As nothing in Africa is really white in the enviroment, the colour doesn't suit very well, as it seems.
I heared people mention, that it might be something, that was left from times, that the climate was much colder, so more snow and ice coloured the enviroment.
But that was not my point at all, it has a right to survive, as the same in black leopards or jaguars, when it occurs naturally.
But my problem is, that we humans breed them in huger numbers to please ourselfs, and not that this white genes appear sometimes, and that is what i was talking about from the beginning, so most of our discussion was leading nowhere.
And to end this endless discussion, i like these big white cats to, they are beautifull, but not for commercial reasons, thats all! Wink

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