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 Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:23 am

thank you Suzanne. Very Happy

You know I'm not an expert but I like to know the animal I collect.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to make too much headlines. If there is a dino headline, then why not a wildlife haedline, a sea animal, a farm...

IMHO, headlines for major companies and headlines for collection are enough. Very Happy

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HKHollinstone
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:28 am

Christophe, you are right about the Schleich Brontosaurus being inaccurate. But I still like it geek Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:59 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
thank you Suzanne. Very Happy

You know I'm not an expert but I like to know the animal I collect.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to make too much headlines. If there is a dino headline, then why not a wildlife haedline, a sea animal, a farm...

IMHO, headlines for major companies and headlines for collection are enough. Very Happy

Yes, looking at it that way, I think you are right Shocked

Already it takes time to look through them all to see if I missed sometheng Wink

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:00 am

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Christophe, you are right about the Schleich Brontosaurus being inaccurate. But I still like it geek Laughing

Harriet, you are right. If you like this model, collect it Very Happy .

I have a lot of odd or inaccurate models, especially among the vintage ones, but I like them very much and they are very important for me I love you But I will never say I collect them because they are the best or the most realistic.

What I dislike about the Schleich dinos is not the models, they are false but even false models can be very appealing. Look at the Papo ones, they are false but often awesome.

So ? Papo makes JP dinos and never write somewhere "...This dinosaur series is the result of close cooperation between Papo and the Natural museum of Paris, France. Each model is true to scale and hand-painted, and is an ideal collector,s item".

What I dislike is Schleich is a pretentious company who telling us a lot of twaddle

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Christophe, you are right about the Schleich Brontosaurus being inaccurate. But I still like it geek Laughing

Harriet, you are right. If you like this model, collect it Very Happy .

I have a lot of odd or inaccurate models, especially among the vintage ones, but I like them very much and they are very important for me I love you But I will never say I collect them because they are the best or the most realistic.

What I dislike about the Schleich dinos is not the models, they are false but even false models can be very appealing. Look at the Papo ones, they are false but often awesome.

So ? Papo makes JP dinos and never write somewhere "...This dinosaur series is the result of close cooperation between Papo and the Natural museum of Paris, France. Each model is true to scale and hand-painted, and is an ideal collector,s item".

What I dislike is Schleich is a pretentious company who telling us a lot of twaddle
Yes I agree with you Christophe Very Happy It's nice to have accurate dinos as well as ones you just like the look of.
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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... And one more question, Christoph (I want to some continue)... But there is inscription on the tags to every Schleich dinosaur model: "...This dinosaur series is the result of close cooperation between Schleich and the Humboldt University of Berlin, Germany. Each model is true to scale and  hand-painted, and is an ideal collector,s item". And what you say about it, Christoph? It,s lie?  scratch  scratch  scratch

Sergey, there is a lot of questions under your "It is a lie ?".


...Thank you very much, Christoph, for pics and explanation! It,s very interesting for me, partially because I did want to be a biologist in remote past!  Laughing  Laughing  Wink  Wink

...So one more question, Christoph (as you did notice our dialogue is found interesting for many forum,s members  Wink ). What model of my lovely species - Brahio (and what brand) you considering "the best of all". I want to know!  Wink  cheers
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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
...So one more question, Christoph (as you did notice our dialog is found interesting for many forum,s members  Wink ). What model of my lovely species - Brahio (and what brand) you considering "the best of all". I want to know!  Wink  cheers

Well Sergey, as I said to Suzanne, I'm not an expert.

So, about the brachiosaurus, which I love very much too  I love you , I will speak about models I still don't have and never saw in a shop.

First, about the brachiosauridae, the best known is the Brachiosaurus brancai which no longer named like that and is now the Giraffatitan brancai. The brachiosaurs allithorax from North America is now the only "brachiosaurus" and the Giraffatitan, which have more complete fossils, is from Africa. Scientist thinks now that they are both different species.
Why I explain that ? Because some of our models are indeed more giraffatitan than brachio  Wink

The way we see the brachiosauridae reconstruction evolved a lot in time. Here are a few pics of this evolution.

The older point of view, this pic show the giraffatitan at the Humboldt museum before he was rebuilt :

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The tail lying on the ground and the neck was a bit curved but more like a slash.

In the 1980's and 90's, the reconstruction changed like this. You can see a drawing and the new reconstruction at the Humboldt museum. The neck is more "swan-like" and the tail is no longer lying  on the ground...

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In the last few years a new conception appeared. Here is a drawing and No Humboldt museum pic because the musuem still doesn't change  his skeletal... It's expensive you know  :)  The neck is again more like a slash than like a swan.

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:17 am

So what we could watch carfully if we want a recent model ?
Avoid all the models with a lying tail.
If you like the swan pose, go for it even if it is not up to date. then the best choice IMHO is the Bullyland :

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But the most updated are models which are like the last drawing.
At last, look at the feet on the skeletal and try to find a model like that.
IMHO the most accurate models are the 2010 Safari ltd and the Kinto favorite. But you must know they are smaller than your big old Carnegie bravhiosaurus.

Here is the Kinto :

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The Safari :

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And a pic with both models :

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

But the most updated are models which are like the last drawing.
At last, look at the feet on the skeletal and try to find a model like that.
IMHO the most accurate models are the 2010 Safari ltd and the Kinto favorite. But you must know they are smaller than your big old Carnegie bravhiosaurus.

...Thank again, Christoph!  cheers  By the way - I,ve saw Kinto models dinosaurs in web about 2-3 years ago (but I did,nt know that it was "Kinto" brand). This models are really beautiful!!  cheers  bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:49 pm

...One more Kinto dinosaur models... The beautiful and more realistic? Wink Wink Ok!


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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:37 pm

Thank You for valuable lessons Christophe and for lot of good pictures too.
Sergey Thank You too for pictures of very interesting things and dioramas. I think all this topic is very interesting. I don't have knowledge of dinosaurs and maybe that's why I never thought about collecting them. Although I think many of them are incredible, especially Papo versions.
I found very interesting site with customized dinosaurs: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think You may find there something nice too Very Happy
I like especially these photos
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HKHollinstone
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:26 pm

Thanks for posting the link and pictures Ana, they are so real looking!
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:39 am


...Thank you very much, Ana, for pics and site! cheers As you has saw - dinos are my special enthusiasm! Wink

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:39 am

There are two types of dinosaurs here,
THE SOFT MODELS which are toys like we used to collect

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And the DESKTOP MODELS which are more expensive, made in resin and more fragile.

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:01 am

I will only speak about the Soft models. They are both known to be excellent.

I only have the deinonychus but this is only a money problem because I'm first a Wild animal collector and I can't buy everything I want alas. ( I know I'm not the only one... Wink )

You must know they are a bit smaller than the Papo or Schleich.

IMHO, the must have in this line are the ankylosaurus and the stegosaurus.

Why ?

The ankylosaurus is actually not an ankylosaurus ( If you want one, the Safari is the only one to have). BUT the kinto is the more accurate Euoplocephalus tutus model available.

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I also recommend the stegosaurus, which is 1/40 scale Very Happy . This model is the only one which show the armoured throat of the specie

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:12 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Thank You for valuable lessons Christophe and for lot of good pictures too.
Sergey Thank You too for pictures of very interesting things and dioramas. I think all this topic is very interesting. I don't have knowledge of dinosaurs and maybe that's why I never thought about collecting them. Although I think many of them are incredible, especially Papo versions.
I found very interesting site with customized dinosaurs: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think You may find there something nice too Very Happy

It is indeed a very good site Ana. Very Happy
Papo models are very awesome but they are alas very inaccurate... So I can't recommend them for a "scientific" collection Wink

By the way I've got this Maiasaura model below. It is a big KAIYODO model, beautiful but hollow so very fragile. It is at the same size than the SCHLEICH edmontosaurus. I forget to take my own shot...

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:24 am

wow.......... Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:14 am

First i want to gratulate you on your great dino collection my friend!
It is huge in several ways! cheers

We could discuss about some things about dino's here, but it is not my field or special interest, as it is more for you, so for me you are an expert on this! king

I love those sauropods, because they were the biggest land-animals that ever lived.
You couldn't understand how the moved around with those elongated necks... Rolling Eyes
You would like to think, that they were semi-aquatic or so, and it is thought they lived on the edge of aquatic-inviroments...

I saw many programms about dino's and their pre-ancestors, and i am reading a thick book about them at the moment.
But they can think what they want, all they know, is that when they see the skeleton, and programm that on modern moving animals, nature always has the strangest solutions for some things... Shocked
What seems logical, isn't true very often, because there are always exeptions... Rolling Eyes
It is nice that the scientists keep thinking, and are getting iside-information about those animals from time to time, but it will always be a guess...
So which dino model is accurate, and which one isn't?
Untill we don't invent a time-machine, we will never know exactly... Laughing Rolling Eyes

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:10 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
First i want to gratulate you on your great dino collection my friend!
It is huge in several ways! cheers

We could discuss about some things about dino's here, but it is not my field or special interest, as it is more for you, so for me you are an expert on this! king

I love those sauropods, because they were the biggest land-animals that ever lived.
You couldn't understand how the moved around with those elongated necks... Rolling Eyes
You would like to think, that they were semi-aquatic or so, and it is thought they lived on the edge of aquatic-inviroments...

I saw many programms about dino's and their pre-ancestors, and i am reading a thick book about them at the moment.
But they can think what they want, all they know, is that when they see the skeleton, and programm that on modern moving animals, nature always has the strangest solutions for some things... Shocked
What seems logical, isn't true very often, because there are always exeptions... Rolling Eyes
It is nice that the scientists keep thinking, and are getting iside-information about those animals from time to time, but it will always be a guess...
So which dino model is accurate, and which one isn't?
Untill we don't invent a time-machine, we will never know exactly... Laughing Rolling Eyes

Thank you Willy Very Happy You are very indulgent with my so tiny collection... I'm serious.

It's true that paleontology is a science where things and ideas changes a lot because the new discovery shakes up older ideas...
But what we are sure about is : A model who doesn't respect the skeletal can't be accurate ! Laughing
If someone found a cheetah skeletal and a toys company makes a model with the corpse of the cheetah, the head of a dog and the tail of a deer, and if this compagny decides that the model would be bipedal. I'm sure you would agree it is bullshit... Wink.

One living example : The last SCHLEICH black rhino :

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Some of us can think it is a very good black rhino models and some it is the best available now.
I think it's a good toy, very well made BUT it is a poor black rhino model. Here is a real black rhino :

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In real life, the head of the black rhino isn't at the same size than the abdomen, it is smaller. Not on the Schleich.
I remember discussion about the CollectA white rhino, is it a white rhino ? because the lipps are not as flat as a real white rhino.
If we can discuss about this, we can also say : Is that Schleich black rhino is a rhino ? With such a big head affraid
I remember a topic about the Papo jaguar, the conclusion was "it is an awesome big cat but it can't be a jaguar". It's true ! Why ? The head is too small, the tail is too long and the body is not enough bulky.

So ?

The Schleich Saichania with six toes on the hind feet can't be an accurate saichania.
The Schleich apatosaurus or brachiosaurus with totally wrong forefeet can't be accurate models.
The Schleich sauropelta with so much differences with the skeletal can't be accurate.
The Papo pteranodon with teeh inside his mouth can't be an accurate pteranodon. Pteranodon means "toothlesswing" ! No teeth in the mouth indeed
The Schleich and Papo spinosaurus can't be accurate spinosaurus because the heads have only a few things in common with the spinosaurus skull.

And ?

The Kinto ankylosaurus is an accurate euoplocephalus because it is conform with the skeletal.
The same for the Kinto stegosaurus, apatosaurus, brachiosaurus...
The same for the Safari ltd spinosaurus, apatosaurus, brachiosaurus and all the Safari ltd models since 2008.
The same for the Schleich shonisaurus, edmontonia, parasaurolophus or plateosaurus.

The paleontology is not only a matter of guess, it is a true science and the hypothesis are serious. Those guys are not speaking about faeries and dragons, they are studying extinct animals which lived under the same biological rules than us.

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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:37 am

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I love those sauropods, because they were the biggest land-animals that ever lived.
You couldn't understand how the moved around with those elongated necks... Rolling Eyes
You would like to think, that they were semi-aquatic or so, and it is thought they lived on the edge of aquatic-inviroments...

It's a good example Willy Very Happy

So let's talk about it. Modern zoology and biology are young science with only a little bit more than 3 century of existence. Paleontology is even younger.
Modern technology is also a young knowledge.
When the first sauropods were discovered, the people of that time can't imagine how such big animals could stand on their legs. the scientist of that time imagined that they were semi-aquatic animals and water helped them to support their phenomenal corpse.
At that time Gustav Eiffel constructed thing like a well known tower and he used a lot of metal to do such structure.
Nowadays ingeneers would use far less metal to build an Eiffel tower because the knowledge increase and we are able to calculate lighter solutions which are even more solid.
It's the same with the paleontology, this science progress at giant step since his birth. at the beggining, the problem was collecting bones as fast as possible and sometimes they even used dynamite to do so What a Face
Now, when scientist find something, there is far more work and far more precautions than in that earlier days.
For the sauropod, we now think that they are absolutely not swamp animals.
Why ? Despite their size, the feet of the animals are not like "swamp animals" feet. Physics science explain that this feet would not support a big animal in a swamp, it would sank in the mud... It's not a guess, it's a knowledge. Nowadays we are able to know if an antelope is living on dry land or on swamp when we only look at the hoofs. A waterbuck or sitatunga toes are very different and larger than an eland toe. It's the same for animals which lived in the desert sand or snowy land.
So they are not able to live in swamp... Are they able to live on dry land ? Yes, physics models show that the bone structure is solid enough to quarry such animals on drier land.
One more proof ? Footprint, we found footprint of those animals and they were dryland footprints.
About footprints, scientist don't find prints of the tail and it confirms that the tail of dinosaurs are not llying on the ground like in the early reconstructions
What do they eat ? The first paleontologist were searching about bones and skeletal, they believe that such big ones lived in a swamp and they concluded that they eat swamp plants...
Modern paleontologist used all the modern science knowledge, studying the environemment of the fosills etc, etc... And we know now that those animals were not swamp plant eaters, but conifer and ferns eaters.
All of those things are not simple guess. Wink

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diversity



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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:46 am

yes, you are right, paleontological working methods and analysis have changed a lot in the last years. just think about the new possibilities, that the analysis of the slightest bit of organic substance gives the scientists: DNA-analysis, age-determination or climatic conditions... things that the early paleontologist couldn't even dream of Very Happy
some weeks ago I've read an interesting article about the gigantism of sauropods, in a german magazine (GEOkompakt, no. 23 "evolution"). it says that sauropods had very light bones as they were partially filled with air-chambers, similar to the bones of birds. they also had very effecive lungs to supply all their organs with enough oxygene. to get enough energy to feed this giant systems, sauropods did not chew. so they were able to eat very much food in a short time and also their heads could remain small sized, as they didn't need a lot of chewing-muscles. so all in all there were lots of different small factors that allowed these dinosaurs to grow to a size of nearly 40 metres (argentinosaurus). though this enormous size, most scientists estimate that they didn't weight that very much (e.g. diplodocus: just 10 tons weight at a length of 28 metres!).

paleo-biology rules Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
yes, you are right, paleontological working methods and analysis have changed a lot in the last years. just think about the new possibilities, that the analysis of the slightest bit of organic substance gives the scientists: DNA-analysis, age-determination or climatic conditions... things that the early paleontologist couldn't even dream of Very Happy
some weeks ago I've read an interesting article about the gigantism of sauropods, in a german magazine (GEOkompakt, no. 23 "evolution"). it says that sauropods had very light bones as they were partially filled with air-chambers, similar to the bones of birds. they also had very effecive lungs to supply all their organs with enough oxygene. to get enough energy to feed this giant systems, sauropods did not chew. so they were able to eat very much food in a short time and also their heads could remain small sized, as they didn't need a lot of chewing-muscles. so all in all there were lots of different small factors that allowed these dinosaurs to grow to a size of nearly 40 metres (argentinosaurus). though this enormous size, most scientists estimate that they didn't weight that very much (e.g. diplodocus: just 10 tons weight at a length of 28 metres!).

paleo-biology rules Very Happy

...It,s very interesting information, diversity! Thanks! (The sauropods is my lovely dino,s species)...  cheers  bounce

...And by the way - thank, Christoph again for new information!  cheers   Wink

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Ana



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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:59 pm

Christophe, diversity and Sergey-thank You very much for lot of information Very Happy Fantastic to hear something new everyday. Dinosaurs can be fascinating indeed!
And You know what? I consider to buy first dinosaur model Laughing I'm not sure, maybe just for my son, don't know yet. But what was always annoying for me in collecting dinosaurs-even if there is many companies making the same species You are unable to make good looking herd because each triceratops(for example) has different skin color Rolling Eyes The real colors of dinosaurs will always be a secret and field for fantasy of the artists. But they were not Easter eggs so too colorful herd doesn't look fine silent
I found another site about dinosaurs: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think the artist who make all these figures is very talented and I like many of these models. (Although prices are high...) What do You think about this one:
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or this one:
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for me this one has something wrong in the middle part of the body, don't You think it looks too weak? Experts what is Your opinion?
Surprised
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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I found another site about dinosaurs: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think the artist who make all these figures is very talented and I like many of these models. (Although prices are high...) What do You think about this one:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This brachylophosaurus is really a fine model Ania and expensive too  Wink  But again it is one of the cheaper  cheers

Raters studio makes really impressive models indeed but they are big na dexpensive: I haven't got enough place and money for them.  No

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Last edited by Kikimalou on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kikimalou
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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:52 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

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for me this one has something wrong in the middle part of the body, don't You think it looks too weak? Experts what is Your opinion?
Surprised
Ana, I'm not an expert, i'm an amateur who love wild animals, doesn't matter for me if they are extinct or not. I also love natural history and jurassic or congo jungle are the craddles of my dreams... Very Happy

Some people on DTF are far more expert than me, one is actually specialist of marine reptiles.
But ok I like to share the few things I know and my opinions as all of us may know now Laughing .

There is nothing wrong in this model. I mean it is true to the skeletal reconstruction.
Now is it too weak or not is really a matter of point of view.
First we are often intoxicate by models like Schleich (I agree they are not the only one...) which are very fat indeed.
As Diversity explained, the sauropodes bones were lighter than we thought and the global weight of such giants is also lesser.
Look at african elephants, the bigger are very BIG but not FAT. There is no reasons to think the sauropods were different on that point.
A chubbier model could be also a good model if it doesn't contradict the skeleton.

the main problem with this model is the price is not weak at all Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Sauropodomorphs and other dinos considerations... And Black rhinos too   Today at 2:27 pm

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