Papo Jackal

I also agree with most of you. This is a Golden Jackal.

My main (and maybe only) confusion with the model is the coloration--I do not see any tan/tawny color to it as you see on Google photos. It needs to be more tan in color on the bottom half of its body than gray. I think that is why I started the debate. I agree it is a golden jackal.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I lot of fun on this topic, really.
So, as we can see , this model is actually very very debatable.
It was in other topic and here , the debate turned out even more interesting, especially thank`s to Roger , with this interesting information.
A Golden jackal ? Yes, I will be very happy to call it like that and I can`t wait to have it in my collection.
But, African golden wolf (''Senegalese wolf'' or ''chacal du Sénégal'' ) ? Hmmm, that`s also very interesting, and why not ? Whatching photos with that animal ...why not ?
Papo never have names , stamped on the models, like Collecta or Safari .... so of course we can choose other name for this model, even if Papo call it just : jackal.
I really like this model, even only from a stock photo. It is real Papo beauty.
But,
the confusion and the debate comes also because the paint job is far from perfect actually.
Yes, far from perfect !
And that`s why, from all funny posts here, this one is my ''favorite'' :

Pardofelis wrote:

SUSANNE wrote:

And perhaps we see one of our talented artists making a repaint ?

I hope they don't!!!!!! As a figure with the most realistic paintjob possible, any repaint in it would be turning it worst!!!

It is so obvious, that the model is not painted very realisticly ...it is missing a lot of details, which will make the model far better.. So,
I really don`t understand your reaction here

Roger wrote:

Pardofelis wrote:

Roger wrote:

I agree with Isidro that it is a golden jackal and I already gave my sents. What I really do not agree is that it is not a debatable thing. Especially when a few members already expressed their doubts.

Well, if I express my doubt about if an elephant figure is realy and elephant or not because I think it could be a giraffe, that dont's turn the discussion more debatable

Perfect comparison, Isidro. If I ever find a furry giraffe I will remember to ask you if it is not a woolly mammoth instead.

Haha That`s a good one Roger

Yes, all this discussion is only about the promo image. When somebody put their hands into the real figure, maybe things can change. At the moment, nothing changed, and if the real figure is like the promo image, nothing will change.
It's just because I'm so restrictive with details and acurateness why I love the Papo golden jackal, that is the second best figure of 2020 of any brand and one of the very few that were included into my wishlist.
Kosta, please tell me, which "details" do you think are missing in this figure? I cannot find any fail...

costicuba wrote:

     I lot of fun on this topic, really.   .......
But,
the confusion and the debate comes also because the paint job is far from perfect actually.
Yes, far from perfect !
And that`s why, from all funny posts here, this one is my ''favorite'' :

Pardofelis wrote:

SUSANNE wrote:

And perhaps we see one of our talented artists making a repaint ?

I hope they don't!!!!!! As a figure with the most realistic paintjob possible, any repaint in it would be turning it worst!!!

It is so obvious, that the model is not painted very realisticly ...it is missing a lot of details, which will make the model far better.. So,
I really don`t understand your reaction here    
.......

Kosta, it was really ( mainly) you, I had in mind, - I hope SO much you will make a repaint when we can get the jackal
Your brown hyena keeps popping up in my head, - well, I know it was an enormous job, but less can also do it

Thank you very much dear Susanne  
Does one model look better , after beeing repainted with more details ?
Now, I think that this question is not a debatable thing    ... and the answer is clear for everybody ...
Or at least I thaught this till now..
Isidro, I am surprised, that  especially you are asking me this question : ''which "details"  are missing in this figure? '' because, like you showed to us, you are person, who has an eye for details ... who carry about details . You`ve repaint some of the models from your collection , making them look more realistic , adding more spots, ...painting some markings which were missing... changing some colors ..
All these are ''details''.
And I think is clear, that if these details are missing on a mass painted product ( which is normaly like that), when you make them, the model will look more realistic.
That`s why I said, that I really don`t understand your reaction with this post here :

Pardofelis wrote:

SUSANNE wrote:

And perhaps we see one of our talented artists making a repaint ?

I hope they don't!!!!!! As a figure with the most realistic paintjob possible, any repaint in it would be turning it worst!!!

...especially with the last part : '' any repaint in it would be turning it worst!!!'' ... ?!?  
This I really don`t understand why you wrote it . If you can explain it to me will be nice from you.

And now I will explain which details on this model are missing and if we paint them on it, it will look more realistic..

Let`s first whatch the stock photo more carefully :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

As we can see, the model look`s painted ok , especially for a mass product.
But also let`s don`t forget that the Papo models on real a different that the stock photos.
For now, we can judge only from the stock photo...
The model has nice darker (dry brushed), grey color all over the neck, back and tail.

But if we take a look of real Golden jackal photos, we will see some coat markings, which are missing .
For example :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

or :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Do you see the markings with lighter color on the back ? And also darker ones ?
And what about the tail ? Is it almost black at the end ?

Or what about here :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Do we see more light marking on the under side of the neck and body ?

And what about this interesting ''ochre'' color, which actually makes this animal to be called : a Golden jackal ?
I think, that on the Papo model is missing and the main color  looks more greyish.

Of course this animal has color variations , like most of the animals and here we can see that is more gray :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

But, to be more recognizable as a Golden, I think it needs this ''ochre'' color.

And talking about variations, look here :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Of course , these photos I downloaded from the Google search and as we know, we can`t trust them in a 100% that all are photos of Golden jackals (especially for the last one) ... but I hope they are correct :)

So again, I like the Papo model and I think it is painted good for a mass product...
But it always can look better with more details  

I hope I was enough comprehensive :)

Thanks for the explanation, now I see what details are you talking about. But, as you said, the coat colour is very variable, and as such, also the markings you mention are variable within the species. You just chose those photos with very evident marks in the back and very noticeable black in the tail. You could have chosen these others for example:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

For all that, because I have an eye for details, I repaint models when they are inaccurate, but when they are accurate like the Papo model, I don't see any need to repaint it. You are very talented (I think the most talented member of the forum) when repainting models, so probably you would be the only one able to repaint this jackal without turnin into something worst. But you just will change the appareance to another golden jackal version, instead turning in inaccurate figure into an accurate one :)

The only fail that I can see in the figure is that it have a too big eyes. But well, I will let it pass anyway :)

And yes, all your photos are from golden jackals.

All this would turn into very debatable thing if we considere the African Wolf as a different species than the Golden Jackal, but for me, they're the same species

I choose these photos,  because they look like most of the photos you can find on internet. Which speaks, that the colors and more visible markings of my photos, are more common for this animal ... And yes if you want variations, you can find some pics like these which you showed..., to mach the Papo model.
But I can show you 100 more photos , like these, which I already showed..
Can you show me 100 more photos of other Jackals like this on your photos ? :)

If one company want`s to show a Golden Jackal , then I think the more clever choice is to present it with more recognisable, more common color, which is this ''ochre''.

I never said, that the papo model is painted wrong. I was answering your question about details.
And tried to show you, that with more details, the model can look always better. Not worst .

And if we agree that the Golden Jackal and the African Wolf are  the same species , because I also think, that they look the same , then ... isn`t also a debatable thing , why we will call the model a Golden Jackal and not an African wolf ?  

I agree with Kosta, Papo is missing a good chance to present a distinct golden jackal. I think it is just a marketing decision, making it even more similar to a wolf and giving to it a lazy painting. They save in terms of production and maybe they think it is more marketable if it looks more like a wolf.
Being an unusual species, they surely should design it as identifiable as possible giving to it a more recognizable colour pattern and I am sure it would not affect sales.
Let's see how it looks in real and we will surely continue with this non debatable subject. I also hope to see great customs of it.


This topic inspired me to write some lines about the golden jackal and its humble but controversial presence in toy shape.

Starlux Jackal - Released a half century ago, and used for many years as a golden jackal. Introduced at the Wiki still as a golden jackal and  It was only in May 2019 that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] demonstrated it to be a black-backed jackal using his catalogues and figures with the original painting in good condition.
This picture from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] shows perfectly why its identification was so confuse and it is still a debatable subject for me.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Even before the Starlux, Prior used two wild canids of unknown identification, as premium figures. Some of us use it as a golden jackal, some use as a fennec fox. It is easy to guess which was my choice. Important to notice that this mould was exaustively used as premium figure in many colours.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Here one of them by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Play Visions Golden Jackal: Released in 1999 and known for a long time only from a memory of a difuse catalogue picture, this almost "cryptic" figure was unknown for a long time and believed to be a dhole. We only knew about a wild dog figure in a set of an Asian National Park. With the huge effort on Play Visions at the wiki and all the debats around, it was only in 2016 that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] presented to us the picture below showing it was not a dhole but a golden jackal instead, what is evident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Picture from @SBell's collection

Noah's Paws golden jackals: Released at the second half of the first decade of this century, these never originated any debat about their identification. They were even marketed as golden jackals. The only controversy is about their small size even considering its 1:24 scale.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
@Susanne's picture with the black-tailed jackrabbits of the same brand and scale.

The oldest golden jackal I know, is from 1950's and it was made by a North American company called Auburn.
I don't know anything about this figure neither why it is listed as a golden jackal once I don't have any sources about it, without an official source, it will keep open to debat, unless Tim knows it.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Picture from @Tiermann's collection

I could introduce here a few China models that could easily be marketed as jackals but that's enough.  Mainly the Nayab strange things.

The Starlux version is also interesting

Personally I think the way this thread has developed proves my usage of "debate" to be quite accurate. :) This will be a long post...

Given that I am an active appreciator of the Canid family, I will fill in my two cents here. Please keep in mind, this is my respectful point of view.

The Canid family itself is unique and remarkable in that it is both the most variable mammal family group in many ways while also being intricately similar from species to species. And the worst way to identify a canid (or honestly any mammal) is by pelage. I will spare you all the boring details of the field of Trichology that I worked in, but to make a long discussion short, hair is a remarkably variable structure in both color and anatomy and thus it makes it very tricky to accurately identify a species based on it. Given that further confusion lies in genetics, trauma, and even environmental factors which all can change hair structures, its not a reliable way to identify many mammals based on color or pattern etc., least of all canids. If I had a penny for every time something had been misidentified through its pelage I could afford every animal figure on my wishlist. ;D

Moving on, canids have a remarkable genetic structure that has made it possible for the great wild wolf to be turned into the wonderful Decker Rat Terrier or Cocker Spaniel I have sitting next to me as I type. While this genomic trait is of high relevancy in wolves and domestic dogs it is less common in other canid species although it IS present in each one thus far tested, including foxes (http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet-scientist-created-the-only-tame-foxes-in-the-world) and Jackals (sulimov dog- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This trait essentially just gives the ability for these animals to drastically alter genotypic and phenotypic traits in as few as 1-2 generations depending on the species in question. ESPECIALLY if they are a hybrid, which I suspect is more common in nature than most believe. This means that the local coyotes common to the suburbs of the town where I live vary from incredibly blonde, a nice medium gray/tan as most expect in the species, very ruddy and ochre colored, and I've even seen one that was incredibly dark, almost black over 70% of its body. My point with all this, is beyond genetic studies, physical comparative osteology and general anatomy is the best way to determine a proper species/subspecies from afar, but genetic analysis is the BEST way (which before I digress, in modern wolves at least they are not referred to as subspecies anymore. They are more accurately called "variations" of the same group "wolf" because they all share such close DNA not to use the former designation [may that be the Mexican Gray, to the Arctic, to the Eastern Gray, to the Red, to the Canadian Gray, they are all just environmental variations of the same North American "Gray" Wolf]. And last I checked, scientists are currently working to make similar studies, alterations, and advancements in determining proper relations between jackals and supposed "wolves" of Asia, Africa, and Europe.)

Lastly before I discuss the actual model I think artistic considerations must be acknowledged briefly as well. Many things play into the actual creation of a model figure such as this as well as artistic perception of the creator(s) and consumers. I.e. a medium gray coyote to me might look like a darker pelage to my father or a lighter pelage to my sister depending on their color perception (i.e. color blindness or health of eyesight) and psychological detail note taking (angle of view, light, movement, surroundings can alter color interpretations from the brain). I feel this is partially the points trying to be made above regarding coat patterns and colors and shades.

Now, lets discuss the actual model. Remember, these are promotional photos and the actual figure probably looks very different in person than how it did at the stage of promotional photography. First of all, we can clearly see that whomever sculpted this "jackal" also made the walking gray wolf model from Papo as well. My opinion is the artistic style of the sculptor has heavily influenced the structure (proportions etc.) of the model itself. Of course behind the scenes executive decisions and Google Images can affect the "Chimaera" factor of any figure also. For me, this figure does not scream jackal like the Schleich, CollectA, PV, or Noahs Pals models do. All of those models have long noses, large pointed ears, long legs, and relatively small paws and head in relation to their body and tail. So is it a Golden Jackal? Even for those who are decided that it is... technically its not. Hear me out, modern studies have determined that the North African "golden jackal" is NOT a variant form of the asian species, it is actually genetically closer related to European gray wolves and coyotes (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-golden-jackal-wolf-20150731-story.html%3f_amp=true). Physically, it is a wolf that has evolved to fill the niche of a jackal and has over time become smaller and jackal sized. But for me, thats why it looks nothing like a jackal! Scientists now call this the African Golden Wolf, hence my reference to how they must reform their classification of wild canids in Asia, Africa, and Europe before. And further, those DNA studies also showed an unprecedented level of hybrids across various wild canid individuals in Northern Africa. And so given the marketing title of "jackal" and its wolflike appearance it is probably intended to be the African Golden Wolf (previously known as the African Golden Jackal). This is why it does not seem very Jackal-y to some, and I argue that if given a repaint or mild alterations it could pass as any other wolf species (probably a juvenile form) or even a coyote like animal but probably not a Jackal proper. Given this discussion and depending on how it looks when it is released, I might buy 10 of them to repaint into other canine species since this model shows characteristics of so many canine species. :)

I deliberately didn't discuss some things, but I think overall we must wait to see the figure in person and then everyone can decide for themselves what it is.

I'm no expert in canids but I really enjoyed this long post Paige. Very interesting, thanks!

Thanks Roger with your retrospective of the jackal in toy shape and thanks Saarlooswolfhound for your restrospective about canids identification!
I never thought I could learn so much about wolves and jackals cause of a "not-so-easy-to-identify" figurine

To add another thought to what turned into my dissertation on canid ID...
These adapted wolves of norther africa resemble coywolves to me. Theres a lot of physical variation in this new hybrid species, but given its growing prominence it will be a new North American species soon enough.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You have the same phenomena of a smaller body size and features than a regular gray wolf, but the almost weasel-y features of a jackal/coyote. The pelage again isn't a direct comparison because these are winter coat animals photographed. One photo posted above by Isidro if you replaced the arid surroundings with a forest setting it would look like a smaller Eastern Gray wolf in summer coat.

Thankyou Roger and Paige for very interesting contributions

Great to read, and I feel much better for being so silly to not see clearly it is a golden jackal

Paige ( and other who may care ), about colour of pelage  :

In my padock I am so enormously lucky to have little Spotty the miniature Knabstrupper , my Icey Freya who is buckskin and my neigbour's Bodil who is a roan bay Belgian.
Looking at them at various times of the year it is like I have 6 -8 horses !  

When there is mud, Spotty is brown...no, no sorry : He looks muddy brown
More seriously : It is interesting to see that in winter, the fur on his black spots is longer than the rest of him, making the spots look larger.

Freya is cream coloured in winter, in early spring and late autumn she is brown, and now she has turned to her lovely golden summer coat.

Right now Bodil is snowy white with bay head and black legs. Soon  she will turn bay with lots of tiny, white hairs in between, which makes her look reddish-grey all summer.
In autumn she will turn almost white again, and in winter she looks ordinary bay.

I also see a change of colour over the year in Fidda, the saluki.
And coal black Siggi is more like reddish brown right now in Spring.

All this beacuse the wool, and the "waterproof hair" ( don't know the word in English ) have different colours.
In horses it is even not uncommon that the water proof coat has a different colour summer and winter as they are not the same structure  

And now I'll get to the point  
The pictures I have seen of Golden jackals in Denmark, they look more yellow in summer, and with much more mixed black in winter.
But then, there are very few here, it may be coincidence ?

Actually some say that Fidda's breed is more genetically connected to the golden jackal than to the grey wolf.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

First. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  


Alfonso

almisi43 wrote:

First.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzSvtyahySU  

Alfonso

WONDERFUL

Thank you Roger for the wonderful presentation of the available Golden Jackal models :)
Thank you Paige for all this interesting information and your oppinion :)
And thank you Susanne for telling us about Spotty, Freya, Bodil , Fidda and Siggi

Pardofelis wrote:

All this would turn into very debatable thing if we considere the African Wolf as a different species than the Golden Jackal, but for me, they're the same species

 

The African Golden Wolf (Canis anthus) and the Golden Jackal (Canis aureus) are two separate species, regardless of what you consider. So, after all those posts about how you place great importance on accuracy, you mean you only care about accuracy when it comes to toys?  Because it is 100% inaccurate to even imply that Golden Jackals and African Golden Wolves are the same species.

You have debated and debated that this model is the be-all, end-all of figures representing a Golden Jackal, when in fact, it is a rather generic figure and could easily represent many different animals within the genus Canis.  While I immediately saw it and knew that Papo intended it to represent the Common Jackal - or more likely, the European Jackal (Canis aureus moreoticus), I also realized it has some repaint capabilities to turn it into other species, or even just to make it a better representation of a Golden Jackal.  I plan to add it to my collection as soon as possible, and then possibly add as many repaints to my collection as I can.  I hope this figure sells like hotcakes; for Papo's sake, because it is a nice figure of a species that needs more figures, and so that other companies may be inspired to make their own Golden Jackal figures.  Better Golden Jackal figures, even.  While I've not been a huge fan of Papo's wild canids, I am very excited about this figure!  It has been a long time since a golden jackal figure was in production (Noah's Pals, I believe), and I have always really liked that species for some reason...

sphyrna18 wrote:

Pardofelis wrote:

All this would turn into very debatable thing if we considere the African Wolf as a different species than the Golden Jackal, but for me, they're the same species

 

The African Golden Wolf (Canis anthus) and the Golden Jackal (Canis aureus) are two separate species, regardless of what you consider. So, after all those posts about how you place great importance on accuracy, you mean you only care about accuracy when it comes to toys?  Because it is 100% inaccurate to even imply that Golden Jackals and African Golden Wolves are the same species.

You have debated and debated that this model is the be-all, end-all of figures representing a Golden Jackal, when in fact, it is a rather generic figure and could easily represent many different animals within the genus Canis.  While I immediately saw it and knew that Papo intended it to represent the Common Jackal - or more likely, the European Jackal (Canis aureus moreoticus), I also realized it has some repaint capabilities to turn it into other species, or even just to make it a better representation of a Golden Jackal.  I plan to add it to my collection as soon as possible, and then possibly add as many repaints to my collection as I can.  I hope this figure sells like hotcakes; for Papo's sake, because it is a nice figure of a species that needs more figures, and so that other companies may be inspired to make their own Golden Jackal figures.  Better Golden Jackal figures, even.  While I've not been a huge fan of Papo's wild canids, I am very excited about this figure!  It has been a long time since a golden jackal figure was in production (Noah's Pals, I believe), and I have always really liked that species for some reason...

perfectly said, all the way around!

I agree, you described certain aspects of this taxonomic discussion better than I did. The only other thing I would add is that this genomic discovery is ongoing. There has been discovered a lot of admixture in northern africa, southern europe, and western asia (where the continents meet) in various canid species. Hence why I brought up coywolves in North America, this adds complexity to identification by anatomical description alone, DNA is necessary for ID.

I also stand by my thoughts of this easily being a candidate for a variety of canid species (especially in my collection). And as you said sphyrna18, this may be the beginning of a legacy of golden wolves or golden jackals or other obscure canids to be brought to the light of the toy figure world. Thats my hope anyway.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks, Blaine!

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

I agree, you described certain aspects of this taxonomic discussion better than I did. The only other thing I would add is that this genomic discovery is ongoing. There has been discovered a lot of admixture in northern africa, southern europe, and western asia (where the continents meet) in various canid species. Hence why I brought up coywolves in North America, this adds complexity to identification by anatomical description alone, DNA is necessary for ID. I also stand by my thoughts of this easily being a candidate for a variety of canid species (especially in my collection).

The taxonomy within the genus Canis seems to change almost daily!  What is a species and what is not a species within this particular genus is often up for debate; even which species belong within the genus is debated; however, there is no debate that the African Golden Wolf is NOT a Golden Jackal.  Not only that, but, as you said, identifying a living animal of this genus to species can be near impossible; identifying or pigeon-holing a toy to a particular species or subspecies within the genus would be even harder.  

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

And as you said sphyrna18, this may be the beginning of a legacy of golden wolves or golden jackals or other obscure canids to be brought to the light of the toy figure world. Thats my hope anyway.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Let us hope.

Completely agree. The family as a whole is incredibly versatile genetically, hence why we have been able to create so many breeds of dog etc. In wild forms, I personally think that hybridization is more common than most believe, and this field is fairly understudied so we don't know until we get blood samples (real life cases, wolfdogs, coywolves, dingo-dogs, and I am CERTAIN there are more undiscovered) Anyhow, that was my general point of the above is that canines are being reclassified every day and it is far from being settled in many cases.

Besides, I think most us collectors would drop dead if a toy maker made an ethiopian wolf, bush dog, dhole, gray fox, etc. ever. But just maybe...

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

.....
Besides, I think most us collectors would drop dead if a toy maker made an ethiopian wolf, bush dog, dhole, gray fox, etc. ever. But just maybe...

No, no, no, - please don't drop dead, - I don't want to give up hoping for those

Very interesting discussions at all levels! Anyway this figure will truncate in my collection of canines!
Natural or repainted ??? to have !