Are we biased by brand when judging a model ?

arafan wrote:

scot(t) wrote:

I think this is a very nice model. I'm looking forward to getting it. No complaints from me. (But I do enjoy hearing other members' thoughts. So please don't think that I'm complaining about other people complaining. I'm not, I swear it.)

(For what it's worth, thought, I do personally think we, here at the collectors forum, have a tendency to pick on Schleich a bit more than on other brands. I also think we have a tendency to give brands like CollectA and Mojo Fun a bit more of a pass -- notice I say a bit more. If Schleich had released the Black Bear that CollectA released this year, it would have received much more criticism than it did. We did criticize the Black Bear, but not as much, I think, as we would have, had Schleich been the culprit.)

I also do really like this model. Thanks for the review.
And Scott I'm absolutely agree, sometimes it seems a little unfair for me.

I guess we are more indulgent with younger brands and more severe with an old professional.

About CollectA, we talked a lot about so much models this year and so positively that people give more of a pass for the Black bear

I was one of the first who seriously criticized Schleich years ago and I still could say a lot but it is meaningless to me. At that time Schleich was on the throne and it was a crime of lese-majesty to simply say this brand was not the best or to really criticize a Schleich model. I remember epic battles and, at that time, if Schleich have made the CollectA Black bear a lot of collectors would have probably explained how it was a good model.  The times are changing and Schleich still have a special place in this Collectors village Even if it s no more a throne...

So what about this wolf ? I can't say it is a bad model but I need to watch it in real and I still think I prefer by far the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

So I disagree completely, we usually feel things according with some personal preferences. A collector that started collecting with a certain brand, is always less receptive to negative criticism towards that brand and often neutral when criticism goes against other brands.
Also, everything regarding Schleich is "magnified" once that's by far the most popular brand. At this moment Safari 2015 topic has 198 posts while Schleich 2015 has 687 posts.
Expectations is another factor, the lack of diversity of Mojo is being this year much more criticized than the lack of diversity of Schleich. First, there's no comparison between the number of release and while Schleich has already a consolidated collection, Mojo is still building it up.
Even considering it, among the only 5 wild life figures from Mojo, we can find 2 species (ring-tailed lemur and capybara) that Schleich never released in more than 30 years. So we are unfair with which brand?
About the CollectA bear, I agree that's a poor figure, but in my opinion, much more acceptable than the new Schleich grey wolf. However, many collectors find always a good excuse to buy a Schleich figure even when it is not good and many find a good excuse to not buy a figure from other brand even when it is good.
We have the impressive popularity of the Schleich Shire mare, that I keep thinking it is a very bad representation of a Shire horse and if it was a Bullyland, it won't for sure receive a second chance. Being a Schleich there is always something to like, the huge eyes, the pink bows, the childish character, etc. A good example is the 2014 Mojo lion, an absolute masterpiece in my opinion and surely 2015 Schleich lion, that seems a quite poor figure, will be well received in a protective way., try to think the new Schleich lion was a new Papo release?
Back to diversity, Mojo released 7 horses in last 2 years, among these there is two breeds never released by any other major company like a Suffolk Punch and an Orlov trotter. There's also a pregnant Arabian something absolutly innovative.
In around 30 Schleich new horses in two years we have only a "half" new breed, the mini shetland. Ardennais and curly are new to the brand but not to the market. CollectA as no competitor in this point both in horses or wildlife.
Bullyland was almost ignored this year and probably the most criticized figure was the Safari WW puma what I think is fair although I think the worst 2015 figure can be found in Schleich range. I know my comment will look rude to some people but I don't intend to be rude, I only cannot prevent the protectiveness of other collectors once I suffer the same. Not worshiping a certain brand but when companies are still new on market. I even made my first comment on DTF just because the way REBOR was massacred.

Rogério I feel a few years younger when I read you and I agree of course

Kikimalou wrote:

 Rogério    I feel a few years younger when I read you and I agree of course

:lol I haven't seen your comment before writting mine.

I'm not sure if you meant to say you were disagreeing with me Roger. If so, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with since I agree with much of what you say. I agree that Schleich has some followers who practically worship the brand and the brand, according to them, can do no wrong. I also think that Schleich models get some extreme criticism from the group that is still reacting to Schleich having been the dominant brand for so long (as Christophe points out).

I think Schleich's 2015 line this year is thoroughly mediocre. I'm vaguely disappointed by it, in general, and find very little to praise. That said, I'm still looking forward to purchasing the Arctic Wolf, the Hyena, and the Rattlesnake (there are probably a few others too). Those figures aren't blowing me away, but they have some very pleasing aspects.

I also agree that the Schleich Grey Wolf is worse than the CollectA Black Bear. That horrible monstrosity of a wolf deserves all the scorn that has been heaped on it. But the CollectA Black Bear, while much better than the Schleich Wolf, was still a huge disappointment.

I also agree that the Schleich 2015 Lion is pretty bad. If Papo had released that model, we'd be trashing it just as much. However, if Mojo had released that model, I think we'd criticize it, just not quite as sternly. I think that was the main point I was trying to make above.

I’m not a devotee of Schleich, not at all. But still, I would take Schleich's 2015 lineup, as a whole, over Mojo's 2015 lineup, in a second. (I'm not speaking about the horses right now, just the wildlife and farm animals. I think's Anna's equine models are just lovely and I have not liked the direction of Schleich's horses. So let's put those aside.) I appreciate that Mojo is a small company, that they're trying to grow, but too many of their 2015 models are just crappy.

My point in comparing the criticism of Schleich with the criticism of Mojo and CollectA was just that the culture of STS frowns on the latter in a way that feels a bit stifling to me. I feel like I have to be careful not to cross the line when criticizing those companies. (I am not saying there's no criticism of Mojo and CollectA. There is. But the sort of extreme criticism of Schleich and Papo that wouldn't raise an eyebrow will get stern frowns of disapproval if directed at these new companies.)

I don't have a preferred company. I'm not a devotee of Schleich, Mojo, CollectA, Safari, or even Papo. As it happens, my view is that CollectA's 2015 wildlife lineup looks to be outstanding and that no other company is coming close. But if CollectA were releasing this Arctic Wolf, I kind of doubt it would be receiving as many complaints.

Kikimalou wrote:

I guess we are more indulgent with younger brands and more severe with an old professional.

I think this is right, and I can understand why.

Kikimalou wrote:

I remember epic battles and, at that time, if Schleich have made the CollectA Black bear a lot of collectors would have probably explained how it was a good model.  

I've read older discussions on STS -- discussions that were before my time -- that completely confirm what you say here. There was certainly a time when Schleich could do no wrong and anyone criticizing a Schleich model would be stomped on. I'm glad that is no longer the case. But the pendulum also has a tendency to swing to the other end rather than immediately coming to a rest at the most sensible position.

Kikimalou wrote:

So what about this wolf ? I can't say it is a bad model but I need to watch it in real and I still think I prefer by far the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

I agree 100%. The Safari Arctic wolf is an amazing better model. The new Schleich promises to be a nice compliment to it though. As a comparison: No Indian Rhinoceros is going to beat Safari's wonderful version. But I know many of us here were still interested to see the Papo Indian Rhino from 2013.

I'm absolutely agree Roger, I also think that you know that I'm not a fan of Schleich. But sometimes it feels for me that everything from Schleich does bad figures and Collecta and Mojo produce only the perfect figures (I know that a lot of figures were discuted by us for examle the Collecta wild ass and the Mojo elephant).
And why do we everytime use the Schleich figures as bad examples, if a other brand sometimes really do badder figures.

scot(t) wrote:

(For what it's worth, thought, I do personally think we, here at the collectors forum, have a tendency to pick on Schleich a bit more than on other brands. ......

This is probably true for me. Perhaps because I used to love them so much, and I don't like their new style.

Scott, it is interesting that you're having the same experience as I had while entering this world of animal toy fora. I thought it was not allowed to make negative comments towards Schleich and your comment makes me feel that something changed all these years. I remember reading a topic on Laughing Giraffe forum where some Papo and Schleich were being compared directly, I wasn't yet a real collector but I remember making my choices before reading the whole post. As most of them were felines, naturally, not influenced by the brands once I was not even able of recognizing them without reading. My choices were mostly Papo. My surprise when I noticed that many people were choosing Schleich, even when it was obvious the lesser realism of Schleich figures pictured there. I think it is hard to say that the Schleich lion, 2 generation ago was more realistic than any of the Papo lions or the lioness, tiger, etc. Though, the few ones choosing the Papo figures, were immediately bombarded with comments of disagreement, some of them very reactive. It was also not easy for me, when I started in this forum, to explain that from my point of view many Papo were better and that CollectA was a very promising brand. Though, all of this is very subjective, I know Schleich, without being consciencious of the name of the brand, for more than 15 years, I remember commenting in shops how cute they were but never felt attracted enough to start collecting them. I always found their design very toyish and not little sculptures. The only thing I really enjoyed was its manufacturing quality. I bought several Schleich to my niece, with 3 or 4 years old at that time once I've found Schleich design very adjusted to her age. I was trying to find some species not present in Schleich range when I found Papo. Only at this moment, I've found eagerness to get some figures for me once some Papo, like the lioness, cheetah and some others, seemed very realistic to me.  All that story to tell you that I already felt the same and I hope you can manage it as I did once we want everyone confortable here and feeling free to to comment in a democratic way.  You're a member of our family and I am surely one of many members that love to read your opinions.
Scott, without any demagogy from me and also not wanting to make you feel bad of your opinion, do you think anyone could call crappy to this Mojo figure if it was a Schleich?

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imgupload

I can't resist, I have found a lemur with twins and I have found it lovely so I need to show here!
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p.s.: Bryan, I saw your question while writing this comment. We use Schleich figures as bad examples in the same way that we use them for size comparison. The brand is very popular so it is not efficient to give examples with less known figures. To be popular has advantages and also some negative points. Why do people always find figures too big or to small when compared with Schleich if Schleich figures are not in scale? Why is Papo hippo too big and not Schleich hippo too small? As you can see, there's a kind of Schleichcentrism in toy animal hobby, sometimes negative to other brands, sometimes negative towards itself, but that's the price of popularity.

I can see I'm very new to the forums... Because I love Schleich, lol. xD

Roger, I really enjoyed reading your last comments. Thank you for taking the time to put them together.

I think I misspoke -- that is, exaggerated -- when talking about the 2015 Mojo Fun wildlife line up. I'm actually looking forward to getting the Bull and the Grizzly Bear, and I think the Lemur you posted is quite good and I will likely acquire it. (In fact, I was disappointed with the Papo Lemur in part because I think the Mojo Lemur is a better figure. The one advantage the Papo Lemur has is its texturing. Some of the Mojo figures (and only some) have poor texturing. The 2015 Elephant -- at least based on the photos -- is a particularly strong example of this. The Mojo Lemur is not bad in this respect, but the Papo has, to my eyes at least, a more pleasing texture: It looks less sculpted and more like fur. Otherwise, though, the face on the Papo lemur seems odd and the legs -- both in terms of position and shape -- seem less natural than the Mojo Fun.)

So, no, I don't think the Mojo Fun Lemur is crappy. Not at all. Putting the Schleich label on the picture doesn't really change my estimation of the model and unfortunately I just don't know whether and how I would judge it differently if I'd seen the picture for the first time thinking it was a schleich rather than a mojo fun. I immediately recognized the Lemur, even before seeing the label.

I would be an extremely interesting exercise -- perhaps at the end of 2015 -- to see pictures of models for the first time without knowing, at first, what company made them. This would be hard to pull off in many cases, since distinctive characteristics of the pictures often reveal which companies made the model, but I'd still love to try the experiment. (The most difficult part would be resisting looking at any announcements for three months until all the information for all 5 big companies have been revealed. Maybe someone else can volunteer for the experiment. )

SUSANNE wrote:

scot(t) wrote:

(For what it's worth, thought, I do personally think we, here at the collectors forum, have a tendency to pick on Schleich a bit more than on other brands. ......

This is probably true for me. Perhaps because I used to love them so much, and I don't like their new style.

I feel similarly Susanne. I am extremely fond of some of the older Schleich figures -- even ones that have stubby legs, cute features, and are not very realistic. One of the best examples (for me) is the old Schleich Hyena. I just love that figure.

Something Roger and I have talked about before is the fact that many of the older Schleich models had a knack for capturing our collective mental stereotype of an animal. So even when the animal wasn't actually accurate, it still felt like it was getting something right, perhaps because it agreed with the image of the animal many of us have in our heads. I love the Schleich Wisent, the Armadillo, the African Cape Buffalo, the Rodeo Bull, and of course the Hyena (already mentioned above).

I apologize to everyone for derailing this thread. My bad.

I'm sure everyone here knows my feelings about Schleich and its product lines, both then and now. I must say that I'm surprised that there are still important members here who simply cannot move beyond a couple of "bad" experiences in an online forum (not really "bad" but a case where someone has expressed disagreement with a stated opinion). If, several years later, you're still kvetching about this stuff, maybe it's time to move ahead, in a psychological sense...don't let yourselves become modern-day Don Quixotes and Sancho Panzas, tilting at Schleich windmills till the day you expire...

I remember many, many comments by someone in the past in which he specifically argued that Schleich BRAND COLLECTORS were the real problem, not the company, its ownership, product lines, or market position. One of these comments was that because ONE "rogue" eBay seller attempted (unsuccessfully) to charge double-price for a special edition, Schleich collectors were partially responsible. These kinds of reprehensible comments are completely at odds with the stated purpose of this forum, IMHO, but they were made and repeated again and again.

Schleich receives near-universal condemnation here from veteran collectors, and that seems appropriate to me, given what they produce and how they operate. If that is not enough for you two, I suggest you travel to Schleich HQ and blow the place up...

Kikimalou wrote:

GiselleGazelle wrote:

I can see I'm very new to the forums... Because I love Schleich, lol. xD

Giselle, Love is a love affair  Of course you are right to love your Schleich model and I wish you will share more walkarounds with us because I Looove walkarounds and it is a love affair

My other fellows, this discussion is vey interresting for me and I would be happy to continue... I have so many things to say and read. Would you agree we split this topic in a "Shleich Arctic wolf walkaround" and a "What about criticism?" topic ?

Yes, sorry, Giselle !!! It seem that this wolfie triggered a lit of thoughts

Christophe, it is a good idea to give this discussion a separate topic, - what about " Are we biased by brand when judging a model ? " or something similar ?

Yes I also would like to read more about that, sorry for write that in this toppic.

scot(t) wrote:

SUSANNE wrote:

scot(t) wrote:

(For what it's worth, thought, I do personally think we, here at the collectors forum, have a tendency to pick on Schleich a bit more than on other brands. ......

This is probably true for me. Perhaps because I used to love them so much, and I don't like their new style.

I feel similarly Susanne. I am extremely fond of some of the older Schleich figures -- even ones that have stubby legs, cute features, and are not very realistic. One of the best examples (for me) is the old Schleich Hyena. I just love that figure.

Something Roger and I have talked about before is the fact that many of the older Schleich models had a knack for capturing our collective mental stereotype of an animal. So even when the animal wasn't actually accurate, it still felt like it was getting something right, perhaps because it agreed with the image of the animal many of us have in our heads. I love the Schleich Wisent, the Armadillo, the African Cape Buffalo, the Rodeo Bull, and of course the Hyena (already mentioned above).
.....
 

You are right as always, Scott !
Look at the old orangutan ! The old polar bears !

I suppose it is a question of a futile thing as artistic value

The same goes for the first Papo models, - perhaps quite strange, but they are absolutely wonderful

Scott, I agree with almost everything you're saying, my disagreement is only when you think that there's any specific discouragement towards members that have negative comments about CollectA or Mojo. It happens with almost all brands and it is often related with the popularity of a certain company. It won't be hard for you to find posts discouraging negative comments towards Schleich either. Schleich was always popular, maybe a little less these days and both CollectA and Mojo gained some popularity these last years. I think Mojo line up is suffering this year some more criticism as a consequence of it. Those are all just opinions and I think we have no reasons to feel discouraged of commenting, as long as we are fair.
I know you're an experient collector and I was not intending to make you believe that the Mojo lemur was a Schleich only because I changed the logo. It was just an mental exercise. I understand perfectly that when you stated that there are many crappy figures on Mojo range for 2015, it was just an exagerated comment, even if all 2015 Mojo figures were bad, they would never be many once they are almost as many as are new Schleich horses. Fortunately Zé Neto already confirmed that they aren't all presented yet.

GiselleGazelle wrote:

I can see I'm very new to the forums... Because I love Schleich, lol. xD

Giselle, I am not new on foruns and I also love Schleich. Musk ox, mountain goat, wisent, armadillo, warthog, new badger, new kudu, are among my favorite figures of ever. Though, Safari anteater, aardvark, polar bear, African wild dog, Arctic wolf, coyote, Indian rhino...; Mojo gaur, pangolin, Brazilian tapir, tamandua, new lion, sable, emu, griffon, sunbear, sloth.... ; CollectA eland, nyala, springbuck, jackal, fennec, saola, blackbuck... ; Papo lioness, tigers, male hippo, cheetha, okapi, meerkats...; Bullyland wisent, grey heron, cinereous vulture, African elephant, capercaillie are also among my favorite. So, I think all brands are able of making good and bad figures and all deserve our love.

I like reading all these thoughts Very interesting! A seperate topic would indeed be neat, as I see this as a huge area to be talked about

Christophe, I think a separate topic might be a good idea. (It may also keep the original post on the Arctic Wolf intact.)

Roger, after reading your thoughts and thinking about it more, I think it's possible you may be right that there is not any larger degree of disapproval here at STS towards those criticizing CollectA and Mojo. I don't know, but I'm at least going to suspect judgment for the time being. I suspect that my own perspective was perhaps a little skewed by the fact that a while ago (many months, maybe even a year ago) a couple forum members, including myself, made some criticisms of CollectA models on a different thread and others got very riled up (or they seemed to me to get very riled up) by these criticisms. (There was some talk at that point about people defaming CollectA and harming the company, which seemed a bit extreme to me.)

I'm always a bit wary of brand-loyalty.

Thanks for separating this! (Christophe? Roger?)

I like the question that is the name of the topic. And I hope others will share their thoughts. It's a good source of valuable self-reflection. (In my humble opinion.)

Christophe... Doesn't matter indeed

*digs deep* Pfff..... What can I say about this topic. Okay, first of all. What I type is my opinion, not something that is true When I was younger, in the part that my collection got a growth spurt, I was looking for brands, just animals marked by brands.... At flea markets, second hand shop and here on STS. I ended up with a lot of animals that I didn't want in the first place XD After sorting out a lot of stuff I became more known of different brands and even developed a favorite list. Now, when I see an animal, I just look at that animal. Pose, paintjob, rarity of the animal in the wild, and numbers and family members in my collection. But I catch myself upon seeing only at my favorite brands. Bullyland and Safari LTD aren't even on my WL. Why? Quality and realism. This years new additions from brands was the first time I am completely honest of myself choosing only the best IMO for my collection. Seeing all the people judging certain brands, it makes me wonder about some animals sometimes. Examples are the new Schleich Cobra and male tiger, I think they are beautiful, even by a Schleich... See I did it... Even by a Schleich... Schleich is not a bad brand, although they sell for a different reason IMO. I giggled by the photo of the Mojo Ring tailed lemur with the Schleich logo on it.  won't buy the animal, because I don't collect apes/monkey and lemurs. But i think it if it was a Schleich, it would have been criticized more. Simply because Schleich has been in a direction many questioned.

But the main thing about such topic as this one, is valuable information from collectors that major brands can use... although I doubt major brands will ever listen to us collectors.

Wow, interesting new topic to read in new year Thank you all for sharing opinions here!!!



WARNING: My comment will be quite too long and perhaps chaotic, but if anyone likes to read, go ahead



As for me I of course have some special feelings to Mojo, I'm just very happy I work with them and I know very well that people in this brand are really enthusiastic about animal replicas world and are listening to collectors. Even if Mojo is not always able to release new additions from collectors wish lists. But I know they would love to make rare and amazing species, perhaps in future it will be more possible, for now this must be done in kind of compromise with optimal marketing decisions.  

It doesn't mean of course I would defend the models that are not realistic or have not good manufacturing quality, it's always good to read reasonable criticism. Especially when it's about very objective things like proportions, shape, realism of the figures. This kind of comments are very good lesson for any sculptor  

For the other brands, I think I like them all It's possible to find several good figures in every one of the brands, in some it will be big lot of good figures in some it will be just a few. But I enjoy having at least one or few models from as many brands I can find.


    (ok it's getting boring here, I'm just talking too much sometimes )


Perhaps some collectors may understood from my comments that I dislike Schleich but it's not true! I like them, I especially like the older models from the (in my opinion) better times of this brand (musk ox standing polar bear armadillo and more ). Many new figures are nice too. Maybe I'm not as enthusiastic about Schleich as I was in the past. They changed the style a bit and it's not always working for me (the older models had also style, but it was  somehow nicer maybe? or?).

But I think the reason is also I just try to learn more about proportions and anatomy and maybe that's why I also see more mistakes in these models now. I wouldn't noticed them in the past probably. I have read many critique comments about this brand on this forum and I think it opened my eyes for some issues. But we can find these or other mistakes in all other brands as well.

So I think critique is usually a lesson (well, sometimes it isn't, in case if it's only emotional expression "I don't like it because I don't like it") but in most cases it's is a good thing. We shouldn't think that criticising a brand is a personal thing against the brand, it's rather kind of lesson for us to see more details and be more observant.  


I'm surprised to hear the voices that some of the figures would be more criticised if it was Schlech product. I never considered this brand as the most disliked one, definitely no. I would say it's the brand that got most comments, so good and bad ones. If Mojo or CollectA get less critique it's mainly because these new brands get less comments in general.

I see that perhaps some of us like this or that brand more, I don't think it's a bad thing to have favourites. My recent favourite brand when it comes to realism and manufacturing quality is Kitan Club, some of the Kaiyodos, and many of the handmade, 3D designed or customised animals made by members of this forum and some other artists. I love also Lineol and many vintage brands. In general I try to search either very decent realism or interesting style (let's call it vintage style, but it will look different in let's say Lineol and different in Clairet or Marx or Dinamização).

In fact in a modern toy brands very decent realism is a rare thing actually, no wonder we have much to criticise in all of the brands. We will find many quite realistic and good enough models, and that's fine too! I think it's a good thing to "play" finding the mistakes in this or that model because it teach us to be more observant etc. But I understand it may be hard sometimes to not take it personally when someone really likes certain brand?  

The style of some modern brands is not the most interesting one to me. For example huge eyes and everything chubby and fluffy is not always appealing for me (sometimes it is, but only in some cases).


 (OK, answer for the main question in the topic, if you skipped the boring part, you can just read here )

Now, if I'm biased when judging a model? I think sometimes, very slightly small yes because I like the brand for which I'm working. But it's very slightly and I'm trying to not be biased. For the other brands I think, I HOPE, I'm not

Just to point out folks that a similar discussion might have taken place between collectors 50+ years ago regarding (now vintage) brands.

For many then (& quite a lot now!) it was all Britains, Britains, Britains, with other brands (just looking at the UK for the present) such as Charbens, Cherilea, Crescent and JoHillCo being regarded as decidedly downmarket.
In reality, whilst Britains products were mostly of a good average quality, they did produce some duds, whilst some of the other companies designed some real gems along with some truly dreadful items.

DaveScriv wrote:

Just to point out folks that a similar discussion might have taken place between collectors 50+ years ago regarding (now vintage) brands.

For many then (& quite a lot now!) it was all Britains, Britains, Britains, with other brands (just looking at the UK for the present) such as Charbens, Cherilea, Crescent and JoHillCo being regarded as decidedly downmarket.
In reality, whilst Britains products were mostly of a good average quality, they did produce some duds, whilst some of the other companies designed some real gems along with some truly dreadful items.  

For British people of course

50+years ago in France, for many then (& quite a lot now!)  it was all Starlux and for a lot it was Clairet... Britains ? C'est quoi Britains ?

In Germany, for many then (& quite a lot now!) it was all Lineol or Hausser... Starlux ? Was ist Starlux ?