CollectA 2013 - American Staffordshire Terrier: Do you want cut ears or natural ears?

baltimore zoo wrote:

With some customizing...I will "crop" my natural ear figure to my liking ... So now it doesn't matter how the figure is made.

Great, can't wait to see it! I don't think anyone here would object to that - the issue here is presenting altered animals as the norm, as some model manufacturers have been known to do, as this can prove detrimental to the breed itself by perpetuating the lay public's flawed perceptions of what this particular type of dog should look like. If we as individuals decide to customize our models to have cropped ears, that's well and good - just as long as it's not what the default model looks like.

Well said, Sumo

"I don't think anyone here would object to that - the issue here is presenting altered animals as the norm, as some model manufacturers have been known to do, as this can prove detrimental to the breed itself by perpetuating the lay public's flawed perceptions of what this particular type of dog should look like. If we as individuals decide to customize our models to have cropped ears, that's well and good - just as long as it's not what the default model looks like."

It's not a question of being the norm with cropped/docked. It's to each his own, and if you have a breed that can be cropped or docked, it's up to the owner. If you want to crop or dock, fine, if not, fine. Personally, if I have a cropped or docked breed, I would do so. I understand other opinions on the matter.

I just wanted to point out (Since many European collectors on the forum) as well, that the dogs in the Crufts show look much (not accounting for the obvious, of European bloodline/breeding) different due to grooming/cropping/docking. The Cruft's dogs are presented in more of a natural look (Like the sporting dogs stepped right out of the field or the herding dogs looked like they just walked of a pasture). AKC shows, it's definitely "Hollywood" glamour and glitz as far as the dogs being "stars" too!
Again two different styles of presentation, here it's "show biz" versus European "ala natural". I guess a good way to compare would be if beauty contestants didn't wear make-up, get their hair done and dressed to the nines...(Not trying to compare dog shows and Miss Universe's, just using it as a nice metaphoric example).

Naturals ears are better, because cut is animal torture.

baltimore zoo wrote:

"I don't think anyone here would object to that - the issue here is presenting altered animals as the norm, as some model manufacturers have been known to do, as this can prove detrimental to the breed itself by perpetuating the lay public's flawed perceptions of what this particular type of dog should look like. If we as individuals decide to customize our models to have cropped ears, that's well and good - just as long as it's not what the default model looks like."

It's not a question of being the norm with cropped/docked. It's to each his own, and if you have a breed that can be cropped or docked, it's up to the owner. If you want to crop or dock, fine, if not, fine. Personally, if I have a cropped or docked breed, I would do so. I understand other opinions on the matter.

I just wanted to point out (Since many European collectors on the forum) as well, that the dogs in the Crufts show look much (not accounting for the obvious, of European bloodline/breeding) different due to grooming/cropping/docking. The Cruft's dogs are presented in more of a natural look (Like the sporting dogs stepped right out of the field or the herding dogs looked like they just walked of a pasture). AKC shows, it's definitely "Hollywood" glamour and glitz as far as the dogs being "stars" too!
Again two different styles of presentation, here it's "show biz" versus European "ala natural". I guess a good way to compare would be if beauty contestants didn't wear make-up, get their hair done and dressed to the nines...(Not trying to compare dog shows and Miss Universe's, just using it as a nice metaphoric example).

A more apt comparison may be found in the world of gaited horses... compare a big lick Tennessee Walking Horse with weighted shoes and set tail to a flatshod horse gaiting naturally. For anyone not familiar with the style, here are links to two resins by well-established hobby artists showing both types of horse.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
This is a big issue in the model horse community, and it basically boils down to whether an artist or model manufacturer views their product as descriptive or prescriptive.
In breeds like Amstaffs or TWHs altered animals tend to show better because they do a better job of matching what the public believes this particular breed should look like. However, some breed associations (at least the more ethically minded ones) try to fight this because the alterations do, on the whole, harm animals either directly or indirectly - whether through amputations and soring or through limiting the breed's genetic diversity by making unaltered animals less desirable as breeding stock.

Spaying and neutering is a much more invasive procedure than ear cropping and tail docking, yet that is not considered cruel

... because it helps reduce the number of unwanted puppies being put to death in shelters or privately? Because it helps eradicate genetic diseases in a breed? Because there are next to no other methods of birth control for animals*, beyond those that have very detrimental side effects?

... not really seeing the problem here.


* (certainly not for both genders, although some nutter evidently has invented dog condoms!)

Sumo wrote:

... because it helps reduce the number of unwanted puppies being put to death in shelters or privately?

Yep, it's certainly a lot easier to have your dog's ovaries and uterus surgically removed than to take an extra care so she doesn't get pregnant in those 2 critical weeks during a year

skysthelimit wrote:

Sumo wrote:

... because it helps reduce the number of unwanted puppies being put to death in shelters or privately?

Yep, it's certainly a lot easier to have your dog's ovaries and uterus surgically removed than to take an extra care so she doesn't get pregnant in those 2 critical weeks during a year

Apparently so. Quoth the ASPCA:

aspca.org wrote:

It is impossible to determine how many stray dogs and cats live in the United States; estimates for cats alone range up to 70 million.
(...)
According to the National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy (NCPPSP), less than 2 percent of cats and only 15 to 20 percent of dogs are returned to their owners. Most of these were identified with tags, tattoos or microchips.
(...)
Only 10 percent of the animals received by shelters have been spayed or neutered, while 78 percent of pet dogs and 88 percent of pet cats are spayed or neutered, according to the American Pet Products Association (Source: APPA).

Any way you want to look at it, there's a hell of a lot of dogs that aren't looked after properly - or at all. How many unwanted puppies does that make per year? I haven't done the math, but there's a good chance we're talking five figures.

Quote :

Approximately 5 million to 7 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 3 million to 4 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats).

Keeping your female dogs indoors (or monitoring them closely when outdoors) during estrus is a good idea - if you're a good and responsible dog owner. The fact remains, however, that many people aren't.

xfoxx wrote:

SUSANNE wrote:

I think that CollectA should show they are animal friendly and not even consider cut ears.

Exactly.

Ditto!

Meant to comment on the ear crop surgery photo. If it was a surgery pic (a medical pic presented with blood/stitches etc.) of breast augmentation, face lift or a rhinolasty, it's still a usual unpleasant looking after surgery photo(Any after surgery pic is). Is breast augmentation, face lift or a rhinolasty mutilation?
For dogs, ear cropping, and for humans, nose jobs, tummy tucks, boob jobs are an artistic form of surgery.

baltimore zoo wrote:

Meant to comment on the ear crop surgery photo. If it was a surgery pic (a medical pic presented with blood/stitches etc.) of breast augmentation, face lift or a rhinolasty, it's still a usual unpleasant looking after surgery photo(Any after surgery pic is). Is breast augmentation, face lift or a rhinolasty mutilation?
For dogs, ear cropping, and for humans, nose jobs, tummy tucks, boob jobs are an artistic form of surgery.

Yes, but people choose what they want to crop or add to their bodies, dogs not
Imagine a husband who want breast operation for his wife and tell her: " You have to go to operation today Sweetheart " and she has no choice?! Or this: "You must change Your nose shape today, NOW!!! "

Maybe it is exaggerated example but just to illustrate situation

When I see dogs who can't give birth without a C-section because their heads are genetically selected to be oversized, dogs who can't run 100meters without fainting because of their short muzzles and respiratory system, dogs with severe skin infections due to their fashionable loose skin and similar health issues brought to dogs by us humans, I see only that cropping ears is the least of our problems.

skysthelimit wrote:

When I see dogs who can't give birth without a C-section because their heads are genetically selected to be oversized, dogs who can't run 100meters without fainting because of their short muzzles and respiratory system, dogs with severe skin infections due to their fashionable loose skin and similar health issues brought to dogs by us humans, I see only that cropping ears is the least of our problems.

This is sad how mad is is our Homo Sapiens specie

Yes, it is horrible what we do to the poor animals, - and the list is long

But cruel action does not excuse another, IMHO

skysthelimit wrote:

When I see dogs who can't give birth without a C-section because their heads are genetically selected to be oversized, dogs who can't run 100meters without fainting because of their short muzzles and respiratory system, dogs with severe skin infections due to their fashionable loose skin and similar health issues brought to dogs by us humans, I see only that cropping ears is the least of our problems.

It just shows we are unable to accept beings as they are.