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 Nayab and copyrights discussion.

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QuollMate



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:24 pm

The rules and laws in China and Hong Kong are very different from where we all live. That's just how China is. There will always be knockoffs unless laws change, but for now, I don't see any signs of these laws changing. But the person running the STS Nayab account is right. It may not look like it from a distance, but if you look close enough, they are different.

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skysthelimit



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:42 pm

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It may not look like it from a distance, but if you look close enough, they are different.
Think about it - if you use the same music and harmony from a famous song, use the same lyrics but modify only 2 words, would you consider it a copy?

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QuollMate



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:18 pm

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It may not look like it from a distance, but if you look close enough, they are different.
Think about it - if you use the same music and harmony from a famous song, use the same lyrics but modify only 2 words, would you consider it a copy?

Maybe a little, but I wouldn't call Nayab's look-alikes copies entirely. It's like a Boeing 727 and a Tu-154. They look the same on the outside almost, but they both function differently. geek

I think that companies should be more careful of making look-alikes and such. I honestly like bootleg figures, but that's just me. Smile

Then again, the company is Chinese and the laws there differ from western countries such as ours. Very Happy

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skysthelimit



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:54 pm

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Maybe a little, but I wouldn't call Nayab's look-alikes copies entirely.
Oh please, even the stripes are identical...

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widukind



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:56 pm

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Is there any way you could connect us with some online shops who have your products, especially in Europe?
Good question, that would be fine :)

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:00 pm

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Maybe a little, but I wouldn't call Nayab's look-alikes copies entirely.
Oh please, even the stripes are identical...

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I never said it was exactly right to make knockoffs, but is been happening for a long time. That's just how it is. That sort of thing is legal there. If you own both tigers, hold them up to your eyes and look at the dimensions and moldings. You'll find differences. No single figure is alike.

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skysthelimit



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:19 pm

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No single figure is alike.
Of course, even if you hold 2 Papo tigers in hand there would be differences. Of course, with one BIGGEST difference - both would made by Papo

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skysthelimit



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:20 pm

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That sort of thing is legal there.
That should make it right in our eyes?

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Ana



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:30 pm

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I think that companies should be more careful of making look-alikes and such. I honestly like bootleg figures, but that's just me.  Smile

Then again, the company is Chinese and the laws there differ from western countries such as ours. Very Happy


I'm not enthusiastic about knock offs. But you're right: China law is different and there is not much we can do about it. And of course we see the Nayab copies are not illegal. It's a different understanding of the word "copy".

I think I can explain you why I'm not enthusiastic, perhaps you will reconsider your opinion too.
Imagine you are toy designer.  You sell your design to toy company. Most of the time the better the final product will sell the more money you can get for your design. For example if the toy is a poor seller you only get 30% of what you could get if it was good or average seller.  Now the toy company tries to sells its product to toy shops. But many shops choose almost identical toy which is 70% cheaper so they don't want your expensive original toy. So automatically your design is a poor seller and for your work you never get the full payment.
So let's say you worked 3 or 4 weeks to design a nice toy, you did a lot of research but it has no chance to be good seller because someone quickly copied this in cheaper plastic, painted it a bit differently and thinks it makes it "original" design. And so you have only 30% of the amount you hoped to get for your work. It's basically the same as you worked one week for money and other two weeks you worked for free  scratch And not because your design itself was a failure but because it's available cheaper produced by someone else.

I understand it's legal in China. But I don't think its' fair. Again, I understand we can't do much about it. Sad

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widukind



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:39 pm

I really understand the point of you Robert and Anna, but can you both remember in your childhood. How it was the mentality in a socialistic country. The humans wasnt rich, more poor. It is a peoples republic and not the individual artist of brands are interesting. If you ever live in a country like this i think you have a other understanding of fairness.

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:41 pm

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It is a peoples republic and not the individual artist of brands are interesting.
I would understand that reason if the sale would be limited exclusively in that specific country, not globally

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QuollMate



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:12 pm

I am kind of a realist. I just accept reality and move on with it. Yes it's wrong to take molds. But there are still a multitude of differentiations between the molds. China has a very different aspect of fairness and right and wrong. Like Andreas said, China is not a very wealthy country and many people live in poverty there. That is why chinese try so hard to make money in their country. Many Chinese rip you off with fake electronic devices, and scamming websites. That's unfortunately just how it is over there....

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:16 pm

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I really understand the point of you Robert and Anna, but can you both remember in your childhood. How it was the mentality in a socialistic country. The humans wasnt rich, more poor. It is a peoples republic and not the individual artist of brands are interesting. If you ever live in a country like this i think you have a other understanding of fairness.

I can't really remember because I was two years old when the system changed. But I can imagine it.

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persefone



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:51 pm

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I really understand the point of you Robert and Anna, but can you both remember in your childhood. How it was the mentality in a socialistic country. The humans wasnt rich, more poor. It is a peoples republic and not the individual artist of brands are interesting. If you ever live in a country like this i think you have a other understanding of fairness.

I think you are not right in this case. I think China (as a country, not as a socialist -which is not, but this is other topic xD- country) has a policy of copying everything. Each country has its own policy about market.

For example, in USSR there were a lot of known artists in movies, literature, sports...

I mean, I think it is a Chinese policy. Anyway copying could be useful for a children market, whose parents gonna buy the cheapest toy if it is quite similar than the others, or for young people, who haven't got a lot of money... but there isn't a good market policy for collectionists
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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

I didn't really want this discussion, especially in a political sense.
Many important companies benefit from the cheap labor of these countries.
They keep the prices and reduce the costs for their own profit.
When someone claims that the working conditions in the factories that produce for these big companies are not in accordance with human rights or international law , these companies soon claim that the conditions are in agreement with the law of these countries.
After all, the law of these countries is only a valid excuse when it suits them.
It is also true that in China, subtle differences, are enough to turn what looks a copy in an original product.
It is evident that this is not a naive law. This allows a kind of parallel economy that benefits the country.
The large companies that base their manufacturing in these countries, cannot do too much to change it because they are dependent on the cheap labor To maintain profits And are hostages of their use of Chinese law when it suits them.
Artists is another question but my post goes long.
Commercially, in toy animal figures, it is not such a huge problem, I live in a big European city with thousands of shops. I have never seen the same shop selling major brands and some Nayab products at the same time.
I find usually Nayab figures in cheap bazar like shops where major brand prices are to high to be sold there.
I don't want to find excuses to those who "copy" and our goal is to informe the brands or prevent to buy these figures.
Though, as a collector, I also don't like these figures too much based on other known figures. They don't bring anything new to the market, only cheaper prices and I doubt that they can bring a similar manufacturing quality.
If Nayab is run out of ideas, I invite them to start a cooperation with STS, we have a lot of good ideas and we know the animal toy hobby as noone.
I am sure we can work together in very interesting sets, with so wonderful and unusual species that they can turn interesting to several premium online shops and local market. Very Happy
STS was a stringboard for the growth of CollectA and Mojo, whether one wants to accept it or not, why not Nayab? Very Happy

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widukind



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:23 am

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It is a peoples republic and not the individual artist of brands are interesting.
I would understand that reason if the sale would be limited exclusively in that specific country, not globally  
You are right, but i cant find this copies here in Germany:)

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:41 am

Roger, you have given, as so often, a very good and diplomatically comment. You're absolutely right
on this issue, it´s not only just a topic about "copied animal figures."
The negative consequences for individuals, the economy and so for the whole society are much bigger.
But you're right, this would here at STS certainly not the place for a political discussion.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
...but i cant find this copies here in Germany:)

Andreas, since now, I also havn´t seen this copies here in Germany and I am very happy about it. Very Happy

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skysthelimit



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:49 pm

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Andreas, since now, I also havn´t seen this copies here in Germany and I am very happy about it. Very Happy
I would be veeery happy to see other, 100% original Nayab products in local stores, amazing items can be found there...

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75senta75
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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:41 pm

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Andreas, since now, I also havn´t seen this copies here in Germany and I am very happy about it. Very Happy
I would be veeery happy to see other, 100% original Nayab products in local stores, amazing items can be found there...

Yes Robert, you are right - That would be the right way! cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:28 pm

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Andreas, since now, I also havn´t seen this copies here in Germany and I am very happy about it. Very Happy
I would be veeery happy to see other, 100% original Nayab products in local stores, amazing items can be found there...
Me too:)

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widukind



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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:25 pm


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
...but i cant find this copies here in Germany:)

Andreas, since now, I also havn´t seen this copies here in Germany and I am very happy about it. Very Happy [/quote]

Yes, and so i can say for Germany Nayab is fair in this market. I dont know why and for which market they have this copies but in Germany they only have their own products- but for that i hope to find more Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:41 pm

Ok... No politic... No economy... I'm sad to read this, I'm sad to see those pics and I'm afraid.

I don't know the childs who will play with that knocks-off, I mean I don't know who or where they are and I probably never know.

I'm sad as an old child, a toys collector. In the past, a lot of HK copies were in the market, most of them were good or bad Britains Ltd copies and it seems they were not able to kill Britains Ltd... Even if they were everywhere!
Unfortunately, it is said that Play Visions small series, that we love so much, collapsed of too much knocks-off assaults... It is sad.
I hope CollectA, Papo, Mojo and others will still be able in the future to add beautiful models, new species and that we will not have to move them in the "Vintage section". Without new models from these companies, I guess Nayab will have then to make again some excellent original models... Because one can't make knocks-off of NOTHING.

One more thing, I also don't like when Papo sell legal copies of M+B Schleich, I don't like when Safari Ltd is making Safari Ltd copies (like the aardvark) because it means less new models for collectors... And I am a collector.

Cheers Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:19 pm

I was born in socialistic era in Czechoslovakia and I was very happy everytime I got small Britains-like "Made in Hong-Kong" animal figure. These figures were perfectly shaped, regardless the scale these were similar to Britains. Moreover, I had (as small child) no clue about real Britains - these figures were impossible to get in my country. I was about 6 yo and with these small figures I started to build my first plastic ZOO...

I think it is not bad that in the Czech Republic are available both the sorts of figures today, the expensive branded ones (for serious collectors) and their cheaper "knock offs" (toys for children). The young collectors usually don´t care about the brand, they want just more nice animals for their ZOO. Their parents can buy more figures for the same money and the quality of these figures is often fully competitive (please compare the Papo and Wild Park tigers above).

I can not understand why some crazy people from western industrial countries are interested in the branded products only - in the fact most of these "branded" products are produced in China the very same way as the cheapest ones...
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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:29 am

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I was born in socialistic era in Czechoslovakia and I was very happy everytime I got small Britains-like "Made in Hong-Kong" animal figure. These figures were perfectly shaped, regardless the scale these were similar to Britains. Moreover, I had (as small child) no clue about real Britains - these figures were impossible to get in my country. I was about 6 yo and with these small figures I started to build my first plastic ZOO...

I think it is not bad that in the Czech Republic are available both the sorts of figures today, the expensive branded ones (for serious collectors) and their cheaper "knock offs" (toys for children). The young collectors usually don´t care about the brand, they want just more nice animals for their ZOO. Their parents can buy more figures for the same money and the quality of these figures is often fully competitive (please compare the Papo and Wild Park tigers above).

I can not understand why some crazy people from western industrial countries are interested in the branded products only - in the fact most of these "branded" products are produced in China the very same way as the cheapest ones...
I think in countrys where the origin brands you can find it is okay that you cant find the knock offs too, like here in Germany, and this is also not allowed. But there are lots of countrys with other mentalitys and also a lot of countrys where you dont find the major brands. Without internet i wouldnt know CollectA and Mojö:). But i often see and understand the the 2 sides of a opinion and so i think both sides are right.

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PostSubject: Re: Nayab and copyrights discussion.   Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:12 am

Jarda, my problem is not that nearly all of them are made in China, my problem is some of these companies are spending money to make new models of rare species and I hope they will be able to continue in the future.
I was born in a Western country and, like almost every working class child, I played with HK models, they were everywhere. And as a lot of French little boys, I was dreaming of having Starlux or Clairet because they were fantastic, with so many incredible species. I can't remember having such dreams with HK copies...
The last years, CollectA, for example, provided us with fantastic things. I hope they will not suffer too much of these knocks-off. It would be a bad thing IMHO to say good bye CollectA.
I simply can't remember or imagine an original knock-off.

"Les biens sont biens, mais les mieux sont mieux" " the goods are good, but the betters are better".

At last, yesterday I went to a "King Jouet" shop and I discovered some knock-off boxes about 10 meters from The Schleich displays.

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