Outdoors...

Well, he specially rented or bought 3 car-garages for it, to build the zoo in there...
He will make a combi-copy of the Berlin and San Diego Zoo.

Hi HKHollinstone,
Your photos are really great, i was not really telling you the difference from the diorama and the Outdoor pictures, i'm sure you know that.
It was directed at the individual who commented on the Outdoor and Indoor diorama, explaining so they could understand the meaning of a diorama.

And you are correct i have been working on a zoo diorama for around 10 years now give or take, the problem is that i started in the dark ages and has taken me some time to get to the future. I allways knew i wanted a diorama of a Zoo, i just had no idea of how i really wanted that diorama to look.

So for years as many of you have done i'm sure, i got my hands on every Schleich animal figure i could find, i then started collecting many brands, the japanese animals, and many others. The problem was that when i started to put this zoo together, nothing really looked the way i had imagined it, i had a vision of the zoo, and somewhere along the road, i started looking at the items i had as not very realistic, and it started looking as a toy setting more than any diorama.

So i went in a journey of my own to search for what i was really after, and as Willy wrote, i started getting everything custom made, from the animals to the buildings, plants and accessories, using the best artists that i could find, a lot of them i found thru museum exhibits, just looking at very detail dioramas in museums and searching for the artist who produced the items.

And there are no pictures yet, as it is an ongoing process, the scale i'm using is 1:12 since it allows for a great range of detail, but some of the items are really expensive and it takes some time to get them, i have a nearby property to my home where i store most of the items in boxes and they wait for the construction of the diorama to take place.
I have started working on many dioramas times over, and finished many of them but never lived up to my expectations, so with the new scale and items, eventually the dream will come true.

Well, we hope you will start soon Danny.
And as i can remember, you already did some work, like the raptors-cage.
I hope, you succeed in making this project as you imagined it!

Hi Willy,
Yes the two Kudus in the avatar are molds, just a begining stage of the figure, the sculting was not even finished, that is why the color looks so funny, i have told Ana about this type of polymer clay named Kato, it is the very best to work with animal molds or any figure sculting.

Even though i do not have any pics of my 1:12 scale zoo yet, i will share with you some pics of other dioramas found in museums i have visited, all in 1:12, you can appreciate the detail, and understand what a massive task this is, there has never been a truly 1:12 diorama devoted to a Zoo, some of the most treasured collections of miniatures in the world are in 1:12 scale, and i plan on adding a zoo.

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"Well, we hope you will start soon Danny.
And as i can remember, you already did some work, like the raptors-cage.
I hope, you succeed in making this project as you imagined it!"


Willy,
The raptors cage was just another hard try from a different era, it is not part of the zoo diorama, when i tell you this thing will be in detail, some of the things that i have been putting together already, i can't even describe it, the detail is out this world, i have been getting a lot of items from a few contacts that i have made outhere, and words can not describe, soon i will start at least the buildup for one section.

As i believe i have mention before i'm currently working on a series of Asiatic Buildings, chinese architecture, a restaurant, an theme entrance, restrooms, small giftshop and a the very special Giant Panda enclosure, as realistic as you can imagine, from the pexiglass viewing areas, to the mini fans above the visitors in the shelter area, to the landscape of the region, well too many details to describe.

But what has really taken most of my time is the restaurant itself, it is the center piece of the area, and some of the items that it will include i had to hunt down thru my contacts in China, some are unique and antique pieces, others custom made to my specifications all part of a very large collection of 1:12 scale treasures, fine woods, real iron and bronze, copper, tile, the materials used in the restaurant would make a real life recreation of it, almost impossible at least for any zoo.
But the vision of the layout and unique design of this theme area are all very easy to recreate once this project has been finished.

I really love those other diorama's you showed here from the museums!
I am a kind of person that would look for hours at those kind of beautifull things, and search for the deetails that are worked in.

The picture from the South-american camel-species is something special too, as the models are so good!
Do you have more pictures of the museum where you took those pics, and i mean from animal-models then?

As for you zoo-diorama, you only make me more curious, can't really wait to see all of the progress on that1

Hi Willy,


I have hundreds of pics of 1:12 museum scale dioramas, since i take pics from many angles, and i have put together some very large albums of this already, the South American camels were part of a bigger collection of native items from this region, and i found the animal scultor thru them, i had to do a lot of research, but when i look for a particular individual i never give up, i was real lucky to find him, and i have been very lucky to find a few others.

I'm still looking for a couple of artists but i have had no luck finding them thru their work, most of the pics in my collection are of dioramas and settings in 1:12, not too many animals, just the ones that i have gotten so far, the biggest problem is that with anything that is not birds, that seem to not interest the Animal model companies, whenever they find a good model or pose they reproduce it, and claim it of their own, that is the biggest reason why i never posted pics of the Mammals scultures in the other forum before, i have seen Safari Ltd copy poses from Schleich, and Papo, and many others.

But as soon as i get a few new figures i will include them in this forum, since eventually everything will be displayed, it is just a matter of the model being ready, and people knowing who deserves the credit, they can try to copy what they like after that. I have tried with a Chinese company that i have been in contact with to reproduce some of this figures in the right scale for collectors, since some of the poses are really unique, but they find the figures detail that i asked for, very hard to reproduce, so i have no fears that Schleich or Safari can duplicate any of them at least to detail.

This forum will be my home from now on as far as showing my new models, so before i place an item in storage next time i will take several pics of it and shared them here.

Thanks for those pictures Danny, they are breath-taking, the detail is exceptional. The cathedral is incredible; I would have loved to have seen it for real. I really like the one with the ships at the docks, such an atmosphere there.
Your zoo sounds like it will be amazing too; I can't wait to see it. It will probably put me off doing mine though because yours will be so good!

HKHollinstone thank you, i did love all of those dioramas, like Willy mention, you can just sit and take in all the detail, it is very relaxing and it has only driven my hobby even more.
Please don't stop making plans for your zoo, i have taken inspiration from other people's dioramas, and i'm sure mine when is finished will serve as an inspiration to others to do the same.
The scale and detail can be different than mine or similar, what matters most is your own vision, my recomendations to you would be to find a scale that serves you well, the scale is single most important aspect, everything has to be in scale for the single most important part of a diorama.
You could build your scale around the animals models you like most, like our dear friend Phil, who liked a zebra and took that as his ruler, sadly not everything will be in scale, and mostly they are not, very few of the animal companies have figures in scale at least as a series, but you can still find some of the figures from different makers.

One of my recent goals was to produce an experimental animal figure line for adult collectors, something that included the realistic scultures we all like and to be in perfect scale with eachother, Noah's pals tried it, but to my taste their line still looked like toys, it was not until i started digging into this that i realised what a hard job this Animal companies that i have critisized in the past really have, the Chinese, the ones that reproduce this animal figures for the most parts, are not very familiar with the real look of this animals, and some do not care at all, as a friend, Robert the Elephant Zookepper and a fellow animal model collector pointed out.
I had thought about sending a company in China the prototype of the animal from one of my figures, since that would be an alternative, but after a review of the pics i sent to the Factory management, they were very honest to tell me that the level of detail that i required would be very hard to develop and very expensive.
So i still have not made a final dessision to go thru with that project or not, since it was really not a priority for me, but the prospect of having my own animal figures line, for Adult collectors seemed very interesting, sadly i'm not sure that the prices of the figures, in order to turn a profit would be something that the collectors would be willing to spend.
I had thought that for a scale model of a animal, a realistic design, a fair price would be around 8, 10 and 15 usd per figure, but after some conversations with this factory the cost would be a higher than this, so long story short, not sure if there is a market for that.

Schleich must still produced their prototype models at home, since it is very hard to create a realistic prototype in China.

I agree with Danny, do not put off your zoo just because someone else has something different, I do not say better because every one has it's own good points and bad points. I chose 1:22 because the original idea was to add species that Schleich did not produce, but as I go I realize that I am going to eventually go with all custom animals. There will be some toy type animals included, some of the Japanese models are as good as a custom model, but the scale is my problem.

I have plans to change all of the Schleich and other brand toys to custom made species. For instance I am going to to have some white tailed gnu made to replace the blue gnu by Schleich. I also have been changing the smaller animals with the Japanese models, which are far superior to the plastic brand name figures. When done there will be few toys on the diorama, and all of the plants will be custom made, either from the Japanese kits that I make or trees and plants done by Danny's model maker. Even though I do not do as much of the model as I like, I still get to do all of the rock work and grass flats, which is what I enjoy, I also have to make all of the stems and turnks for the Japanese kits.

So far, the end results are better then I imagined. My vision has been shared here and on other sites, and both Ana and Danny are consulted regularly with reguards to the figures and plants that are to be made. I will have approximatly 200 custom plants, (including the ones I make myself) and at least 100 animal figures between the two dioramas. I don't know how many will be custom made vs Japanese models, but Ana is so good I have no trouble if she wants to sculpt all of the figures.

My good friend Phil, explained it much better than i did, your vision is your own, and i'm sure that along the way you will find many things that will inspire you to add and take from your plans, and if i can be of any help, please feel free to write, i'm allways eager to exchange ideas with any fellow diorama maker.

I have a pretty good source right here at home for the plants and buildings, and i'm currently helping Phil with his own great challenge, as well as a couple of other enthusiasts from other worlds of miniature.

I will share some pics of the work of one of my closest friends, he creates incredible buildings and structures of all sizes and detail, his work is seen in museums and many private collections, and i have had the pleasure of working with him in many projects, i'm currently trying to help him set up a website even though i keep him very bussy, but basically his works speacks for itself, we just finished buying some new tools, that were required to take his work to an even bigger level, and now we can create kits of zoo buildings etc, and ship them,
He is studied in architectural styles from around the world, with his help i have been able to fully bring to life my vision of a custom zoo, from park benches, to lamps, to brick walls.

I'm including some of his personal work, most of it in private collections, many of his pieces are one of a kind. All of this pieces are in 1:12 scale.

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I would love help and ideas Danny! I will send you some plans of mine and some details I've drawn up on the computer.
Your friend's work is beautiful, I love the Tudor shop front, it really looks real, stunning. The carving above the door is incredible! Really beautiful.

WOW! It males me think of the African village diorama at one point that I wanted. I was thinking of an African native village, with some cattle, in fact Ana and I have already made plans to make a herd of Ankole Watusi cattle-herders and some native. If I do another smaller African diorama that is what it will be. It will be in the same scale, so that at some point I can just add a table and attach it to the exsisting diorama.

All of these ideas mean only one thing, when I do get home I guess my work shop will have full dioramas in it. For those of you who follow the posts, there was some talk about just displaying my items in a lighted glass case, and I may still do that for some figures and trees, but back home I have a large workshop that is all mine, and my pen making area will not take up 1 / 4 the space, that means several big dioramas can be placed there. Oh well, just in time, and I really do enjoy doing them, so it is not a bad thing.

Berlinzoo954 wrote:

Really nice pictures, i can see you like photography.



"AMAZING!! Wow, I'm at a loss for words. I really prefer these outdoor "dioramas" to indoor artificial ones, good as those often are. The focus, the lighting... Just wow!"

It is two very different things, this is photography of animal figures in nature, a diorama is a complete different thing, is apples and oranges, just felt i needed to clarify that for you, a very good diorama, in scale and realistic, might take a very long time to create, and they will allways be artificial, since that is the whole point of a diorama, but the real good ones, are as realistic that you can't hardly tell the difference, can't use toys for those.

Oh my. I never meant to put down dioramas. I love and admire them! It may be that my definition of a diorama isn't the right one. I always thought that a diorama was any setting in which you put a miniature model to make it look realistic, whether that setting is natural or artificial. I arrived at this definition because I have seen outdoor photos like these in both this forum and the LG ones always under the "Diorama" thread. So I thought, if either kind of photograph is considered a photo of diorama, I found it fair to make the comparison. But I don't think dioramas are worse or better than anything else. What I meant was, when it comes to photos, I prefer the ones taken outdoors.

Now, I will grant that my definition was wrong. According to thefreedictionary.com, a diorama is:

"A three-dimensional miniature or life-size scene in which figures, stuffed wildlife, or other objects are arranged in a naturalistic setting against a painted background."

So if you don't want to call these photos dioramas based on such a definition, then I agree I am comparing apples to oranges. If, however, you want to call both types of pictures diorama photography, then I don't believe I am out of place in stating my preference for one or the other.

Though I will say again -- I like BOTH types very much! I just think artificial dioramas make great indoor displays, while for photography the outdoors give much better results.

Also, I disagree that the whole point of a diorama is to "always be artificial." I think the point is to achieve as much REALISM as possible on a (usually) small scale. The artificial part should show as little as possible, isn't that the point? I always thought so, but please share your thoughts.

While I too have a different idea of a diorama, I'm more in line with Danny, I agree that some of the photos of the figures in nature can be spectacular and very realistic. My biggest problem with the outdoor scenes is you can't scale down the background and to me that takes away from the whole scene. Not that I don't like the photos, the contrary is true, I love the outdoor photos, it is just that to me a diorama is more "realistic" then one where the grass and rocks are out of scale.

I don't also don't think Danny ment to say you were putting anything down, just he is a purest, that is why his whole display will be custom made, he was just explaining the difference for a reference point.

Philter4 wrote:

While I too have a different idea of a diorama, I'm more in line with Danny, I agree that some of the photos of the figures in nature can be spectacular and very realistic. My biggest problem with the outdoor scenes is you can't scale down the background and to me that takes away from the whole scene. Not that I don't like the photos, the contrary is true, I love the outdoor photos, it is just that to me a diorama is more "realistic" then one where the grass and rocks are out of scale.

I don't also don't think Danny ment to say you were putting anything down, just he is a purest, that is why his whole display will be custom made, he was just explaining the difference for a reference point.

I see what you mean. I just wanted to make sure I had not offended anyone with my opinion. Personally, I like to find take photos outdoors while seeking out grasses and things that help give the illusion of realism as much as possible. Such as these I took a while back:

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I perfectly understand what you mean, though. The giant leaves on the branch do take something away! Maybe I'm having a bit of diorama envy... Since I have no space to make one, and too many animal replicas in a box.

[Quote = "marinaneira"]

I see what you mean. I just wanted to make sure I had not offended anyone with my opinion. Personally, I like to find take photos outdoors while seeking out grasses and things that help give the illusion of realism as much as possible. Such as these I took a while back:

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I perfectly understand what you mean, though. The giant leaves on the branch Thurs take something away! : Roll: Maybe I'm having a bit of envy diorama ... Since I have no space to make one, and too many animal replicas in a box. : Tongue: [/ quote]

I have the same problem, space. Right now while I am recovering I stay at my parents house, and I may be here for a year or more longer. My father and brother (my brother owns the house next door, but we live in the mountains so there is 2 acres between our houses) have a 2000 squar foot work shop with all of the woodworking and other tools, I have my pen making bench and dioramas out there, but the space, as big as it is, isn't mine so I have to try to make my use as small as possible so I don't take space away from them.

Philter4 wrote:

[Quote = "marinaneira"]

I see what you mean. I just wanted to make sure I had not offended anyone with my opinion. Personally, I like to find take photos outdoors while seeking out grasses and things that help give the illusion of realism as much as possible. Such as these I took a while back:

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I perfectly understand what you mean, though. The giant leaves on the branch Thurs take something away! : Roll: Maybe I'm having a bit of envy diorama ... Since I have no space to make one, and too many animal replicas in a box. : Tongue: [/ quote]

I have the same problem, space. Right now while I am recovering I stay at my parents house, and I may be here for a year or more longer. My father and brother (my brother owns the house next door, but we live in the mountains so there is 2 acres between our houses) have a 2000 squar foot work shop with all of the woodworking and other tools, I have my pen making bench and dioramas out there, but the space, as big as it is, isn't mine so I have to try to make my use as small as possible so I don't take space away from them.

I see, it must not be easy for you. I live with my mother still, but it isn't so much that I don't want to bother her (I pay the rent after all.) I just don't have space left in the house at all while still making the house look neat and organized. Mostly I have too many books.

I just noticed on the quote of what I wrote, on your post, that my wording is changed and some words even translated to I guess German? The forum is doing that automatically, isn't it? A little annoying. Heh!

Some interesting discussions going on here.

Well, M. is right by saying now, that a diorama is a 3-D miniature version of something in real life, or at least like something that could be real life.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with making pics outside, specially if you don't have the room at home.
That can make your pictures look more realistic indeed, but you have to search hard for the right settings, or you have to have really good photographic skills, to make it look like that. :)

I know about having not enough room, as this is quit common in collecting.
I live alone in my 3 bedroom house, and my vitrines are in my livingroom(5), one big one in a smaller bedroom, and even 2 smaller ones in my toilt, haha.
and i have the plans to make a zoo-diorama too....

Anyway, everybody on his or her own best possible way, isn't it?

The pictures Danny showed us here are top of the bill ,and i am sure, that Danny's zoo will in the same category!

WILLYBACOMAN wrote:

Some interesting discussions going on here.

Well, M. is right by saying now, that a diorama is a 3-D miniature version of something in real life, or at least like something that could be real life.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with making pics outside, specially if you don't have the room at home.
That can make your pictures look more realistic indeed, but you have to search hard for the right settings, or you have to have really good photographic skills, to make it look like that. :)

I know about having not enough room, as this is quit common in collecting.
I live alone in my 3 bedroom house, and my vitrines are in my livingroom(5), one big one in a smaller bedroom, and even 2 smaller ones in my toilt, haha.
and i have the plans to make a zoo-diorama too....

Anyway, everybody on his or her own best possible way, isn't it?

The pictures Danny showed us here are top of the bill ,and i am sure, that Danny's zoo will in the same category!

I must say! There seems to be ground for longer, deeper and more interesting conversations in this forum than in LG for some reason? I just joined LG and still feel reluctant to choose a forum over another, they are both fun. But this thread has some very long posts of a kind I did not see back there! It's very stimulating to exchange opinions with fellow collectors.

And you, Willy!! You have so much space, I want some of that space for myself!

But anyway, I am going on a photographing outing with a friend this Friday, so hopefully I will have more of my own "outdoor dioramas" to share with you on the weekend.

Hello Marina,
It is not a problem, i for one did not take this the wrong way, but i felt i needed to explain to you the differences, since they were really very hard things to compare to eachother, but i think i understand where you were coming from.
Must people choose to post pics of the animals in outdoor settings, and you have some very good pics like the ones that my friend from England took, excellent light reflection as you well mention.

And i agree with you 100% about the dioramas for the most part aim at coming as close to nature and all other things of life as it can be made possible, i made mention of a diorama allways being artificial, because that is the nature of it, even dioramas in zoos inside buildings where they keep animals are artificial man made, nature did not make create them, it is a replica, some very good, others not so.

But at the end a diorama does not have to aim for realism i suppose, my whole vision with dioramas is to come as close to life as possible, and i believe i have been making a very good effort in all areas. But let's say that our friend Willy wants to make a diorama of a Victorian zoo with britain figures, that is a diorama as well of britain figures, or our host Torben, who happens to have one of the finest collections of Schleich anywhere, wants to do a diorama exclusive of Schleich figures, that is a different aim as well, but still a diorama.

The ideal thing would be to be able to recreate a diorama in Nature itself, about two years ago when i fully develop a new vision of my zoo project, i thought about doing the diorama outdoors, taking full advantage of Nature, and given our good Miami Weather, it would have been an easier task than living in England i suppose, but there were too many factors, the Weather even here is terrible, and most things would wear with time, instead of investing thousands of dollars in landscape art for my diorama, i could have just planted bonsais, (the real ones) but that also was a problem, the maintnance along would have been a nightmare, never mind losing trees to bacteria and many different things.
And there is allways the chance of a disaster, a hurricane, even with a roof like i thought of it, i would have been impossible, so indoors it is, the downsize reduced space.

By the way welcome to this forum, from Miami as well.

For me a zoo in the 1:32 could be realistic, using several brands in that section.
But the minimum room i would need for that, would be at least 4x4 meters...
It would be a mix of the Victorian zoo-type, and from later years i guess.

I would need much more of the Hausser Elastolin "Hagenbeck" type zoo-enclosures, and much more zoo-railings.
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Another thing that crossed my mind, is opening up a little museum for animal-models.
But for that i need much more than i have right now, and specially rare ones, like Richard Lewis and his friend have.
So for now, it is just an idea...

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Willy
As you well know besides working on the zoo diorama, and my new passion for realistic items, i once was a huge collector of animal toy figures and zoo enclosures, and since i lived in Germany for some time i had a little fun, i sold many many ages ago a (not that long around 4 years give or take) a few Elastolin/Hausser enclosures, there was one set of Cages in particular, wow i remember now, it seemed right out of an old, it was so realistic, i guess the age, and the poor condition of the bricks and wood added to its realism, but it was great.

They did sell for a real nice check, not bad for this old and rare German items, i must of been German in a past life, i have so many memories of this great country and keep so many memorabilia as well, i have a lot of old posters of zoos, some very rare postcards of Berlin Zoo prior to WW2 and almost all the guidebooks, that were done post war.
And still have the second largest Schleich collection that i'm aware off second to Torben, you had a pretty good collection yourself, got about 4000 euros for it right? that is pretty nice, i would sell all of mine in a heartbeat for that figure, that sounds like a nice paycheck.

My threads getting really long here!
I will start another thread for my zoo plans.

I do have only one of those zoo-enclosures from Hausser untill now...
It is very hard to find them, and they go up high in price indeed.
And there are so many, i didn't even show all of them here.
But i have the 1972 trade-catalogue here on my pc too.

I do have memories from there too of course, as i lived from 1971-1976 in Germany too, and i worked there for several short periods on a later age.
From this time, my love for the Hausser stuff is coming.
I always thought, they looked so much better then the Britains figurines from the same period.
Anyway, i will try to get everything from this brand, on which i can lay my hands on, as long as it has any connection with the animals.

I know you still have a very large Schleich-collection.
Even my collection before could only stand in the shade of yours, Torbens and Amy's...
I got 3000 euro's for them by the way, and i needed the money badly as you know, or i would never have parted from this collection before.
But ok, i am on the way back, i have around 300 items right now, and the next 10 are coming in next week i guess. :)