Roger's 2020 Arrivals - 19th October update with two new Papo models!

Roger wrote:

Thanks everyone, I am glad you like my two models.

RtasVadumee wrote:

I see that your main focus for Papo 2020 were the same as mine. I also recommend you the mole.

Thanks, after seeing pictures of the mole on forum, I am sure I will add it to my collection. :)

bmathison1972 wrote:

More and more people get this jackal - I am still planning on it! However, the more I see the cormorant, the less enthusiastic I am about it, especially since I have one by Kaiyodo (they are however, different subspecies probably).

I will use my model as an European shag (Phalacrocorax aristotelis) - Cormoran huppé - in French, until someone find a more convincing identification.
It is black, with black legs, yellow on the base of the bill, small crest, blue eyes and honestly I count 12 tail feathers what is correct for this species, great cormorants have 14 tail feathers. However, it is hard to count and you should never trust in my eys.
The small size also helps because this species is smaller than a great cormorant but that's just a convenience.
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costicuba wrote:

I was sure, that you will like seeing this jackal on real, Roger
It is really nice sculpted model. And when a small figure like this one, is on our hands, it looks much better, than on close up photos.
Congratulations for both models .
I am also waiting this cormorant ... it has to come today

You were surely right. As Christophe used to say, very sharp close-up pictures are often cruel and your pictures are so good that the same is valid for you. I hope your cormorant arrives soon.

That's a very good idea to use this figure as an European shag, I did not even think about that although we have plenty of them here in Brittany and I see them every time I go to the seaside. The size is perfect to go with the Schleich gull.
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(photo is mine)

However, it has too much white on the throat so we'll have to pretend it is a juvenile specimen.
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(photo is not mine)

Two wonderful models, you got there, Roger ! Congratulations
I can see that the European shag is indeed very small, - good idea to take a picture of him standing on a lego block.

Susanne, it is really small although the open wings make it look larger. It weighs around 10 g that averages with the weight of some Safari toob figures. That's a new waver from Papo, just think about the albatross.

RtasVadumee wrote:

That's a very good idea to use this figure as an European shag, I did not even think about that although we have plenty of them here in Brittany and I see them every time I go to the seaside. The size is perfect to go with the Schleich gull.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(photo is mine)

However, it has too much white on the throat so we'll have to pretend it is a juvenile specimen.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(photo is not mine)

I love the photo with the gull. I think the identification of this model gravitates between the great albatross and the European shag, they are quite similar and closely related as you know. The white patch is also not as conspicuous as you see in my picture that was taken with flash. I think they tried to make it with little contrast but they never dknow how to do it. They need to read Kosta's tutorials on forum.

Roger wrote:

Thanks everyone, I am glad you like my two models.

RtasVadumee wrote:

I see that your main focus for Papo 2020 were the same as mine. I also recommend you the mole.

Thanks, after seeing pictures of the mole on forum, I am sure I will add it to my collection. :)

bmathison1972 wrote:

More and more people get this jackal - I am still planning on it! However, the more I see the cormorant, the less enthusiastic I am about it, especially since I have one by Kaiyodo (they are however, different subspecies probably).

I will use my model as an European shag (Phalacrocorax aristotelis) - Cormoran huppé - in French, until someone find a more convincing identification.
It is black, with black legs, yellow on the base of the bill, small crest, blue eyes and honestly I count 12 tail feathers what is correct for this species, great cormorants have 14 tail feathers. However, it is hard to count and you should never trust in my eys.
The small size also helps because this species is smaller than a great cormorant but that's just a convenience.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

costicuba wrote:

I was sure, that you will like seeing this jackal on real, Roger
It is really nice sculpted model. And when a small figure like this one, is on our hands, it looks much better, than on close up photos.
Congratulations for both models .
I am also waiting this cormorant ... it has to come today

You were surely right. As Christophe used to say, very sharp close-up pictures are often cruel and your pictures are so good that the same is valid for you. I hope your cormorant arrives soon.

Roger, after my last post I looked on eBay and found a US dealer who had 2020 Papo figures. I bought six, including this cormorant. I count 11, maybe 12, tail feathers, so I think your ID of a European shag is best! Good work.
The figure really is nice; I was not expecting the almost iridescent painting on the back of the wings and tail!!!!

bmathison1972 wrote:

Roger wrote:

Thanks everyone, I am glad you like my two models.

RtasVadumee wrote:

I see that your main focus for Papo 2020 were the same as mine. I also recommend you the mole.

Thanks, after seeing pictures of the mole on forum, I am sure I will add it to my collection. :)

bmathison1972 wrote:

More and more people get this jackal - I am still planning on it! However, the more I see the cormorant, the less enthusiastic I am about it, especially since I have one by Kaiyodo (they are however, different subspecies probably).

I will use my model as an European shag (Phalacrocorax aristotelis) - Cormoran huppé - in French, until someone find a more convincing identification.
It is black, with black legs, yellow on the base of the bill, small crest, blue eyes and honestly I count 12 tail feathers what is correct for this species, great cormorants have 14 tail feathers. However, it is hard to count and you should never trust in my eys.
The small size also helps because this species is smaller than a great cormorant but that's just a convenience.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

costicuba wrote:

I was sure, that you will like seeing this jackal on real, Roger
It is really nice sculpted model. And when a small figure like this one, is on our hands, it looks much better, than on close up photos.
Congratulations for both models .
I am also waiting this cormorant ... it has to come today

You were surely right. As Christophe used to say, very sharp close-up pictures are often cruel and your pictures are so good that the same is valid for you. I hope your cormorant arrives soon.

Roger, after my last post I looked on eBay and found a US dealer who had 2020 Papo figures. I bought six, including this cormorant. I count 11, maybe 12, tail feathers, so I think your ID of a European shag is best! Good work.
The figure really is nice; I was not expecting the almost iridescent painting on the back of the wings and tail!!!!

Thanks Blaine and also Jean-Luc. I think they want to reproduce the iridiscence we find on these birds, especially the European shag although it shows a greenish hue. I think the model is quite delicate and correctly designed. About the feathers, notice the central "feather" is bifurcated, being two actually and it divides the tail in two groups of 6. You can also count on on ventral side. If this species identification is generally accepted, I may list it on TAW like that with a not saying it is marketed just as a cormorant. Actually, I like best the cormorant than the albatross although it is obvious they're from the same factory.

I also got mine and I counted 12 feathers on ventral side and 11 on dorsal side, but now Roger explained that the central feather is bifurcated, being two actually, so it make sense.
Roger, first, when I saw your idea , to use this model as European shag, I taught, what I cool idea...
I will do the same !
But then, I start to watch many photos and also videos, to read more information about the Great cormorant and the European shag ... and watching the Papo model more carefully, my oppinion is, that
the model is more close to the Great cormorant.
The beak is longer, the crest is back on the head, which is typical for the Great cormorant.
On the European shag, the crest is on top of the head and the beak is shorter.
And also the coloration Papo used : This yellow skin on the face is typical for the great cormorant.
Papo puted too much of it on the face, but actually watching some videos, I saw some great cormorants, having more yellow skin around the eyes...
Shags have yellow only on the back and down side of the beak.
And also the feathers on dorsal side are painted with this bronze colour, which again is more typical for the great cormorant , beeing more brownish there, although, sometimes there are great cormorants beeing all black.
I found one nice video showing the difference between these two birds..
Here it is :

That are the Papo must haves this year :)

costicuba wrote:

I also got mine and I counted 12 feathers on ventral side and 11 on dorsal side, but now Roger explained that the central feather is bifurcated, being two actually, so it make sense.
Roger, first, when I saw your idea , to use this model as European shag, I taught, what I cool idea...
I will do the same !
But then, I start to watch many photos and also videos, to read more information about the Great cormorant and the European shag ... and watching the Papo model more carefully, my oppinion is, that
the model is more close to the Great cormorant.
The beak is longer, the crest is back on the head, which is typical for the Great cormorant.
On the European shag, the crest is on top of the head and the beak is shorter.
And also the coloration Papo used : This yellow skin on the face is typical for the great cormorant.
Papo puted too much of it on the face, but actually watching some videos, I saw some great cormorants, having more yellow skin around the eyes...
Shags have yellow only on the back and down side of the beak.
And also the feathers on dorsal side are painted with this bronze colour, which again is more typical for the great cormorant , beeing more brownish there, although, sometimes there are great cormorants beeing all black.
I found one nice video showing the difference between these two birds..
Here it is :

Kosta, I love the way as you studied it and I tend to agree with you more based in your description than in this video.
I will watch this video with more time next once it is truly interesting. For me it is equally cool being it a great cormorant or a sahg. Though, I find it always interesting when we can find an exact species to our figures. Thanks for your imput and I promise I will return to this subject.

Interesting Kosta

When I see the video and the figure I see:

1. Tail feathers, beak length support shag
2. head shape, color on face, crest at back of head, and dorsal color support greater cormorant.

I am starting to lean more towards a great cormorant again as well. I am only assume the number of tail feathers was a coincidence.

Roger wrote:

Kosta, I love the way as you studied it and I tend to agree with you more based in your description than in this video.
I will watch this video with more time next once it is truly interesting. For me it is equally cool being it a great cormorant or a sahg. Though, I find it always interesting when we can find an exact species to our figures. Thanks for your imput and I promise I will return to this subject.

For me was also very interesting to search for exact species of this model ... and as we know Papo well, sometimes it is hard..
And this model again makes it hard for us ... but it gives also choices :)
I can`t wait for you , to return to this subject

bmathison1972 wrote:

Interesting Kosta

When I see the video and the figure I see:

1. Tail feathers, beak length support shag
2. head shape, color on face, crest at back of head, and dorsal color support greater cormorant.

I am starting to lean more towards a great cormorant again as well. I am only assume the number of tail feathers was a coincidence.

I agree with you Blaine . As Roger pointed the difference on the number of the feathers , of these two birds .. the model goes more for Shag.
I actually think , that the length of the beak, of this model is showing more the great cormorant, as they have longer beaks.
And because I also agree with you , and I also have a feeling , that the number of feathers was more a coincidence, and not a specific choice of the sculptor, my main point is the crest at back of head, to call it : a great cormorant...
One is for sure, Papo again made a model, which is not 100% clear with species..

Thanks for all the informations about the possible species. I really love your discussion, but for me it´s very obvious that Papo wanted to make a Great Cormorant. They become more and more common in central Europe and it´s a very distinctive bird in our region.
For me, a Great Cormorant is more "normal" or common than a Shag. But this depends clearly on where you live, as shags are more common on coasts.

Sawing the figurine for the first time, for me was a Great Cormorant the obvious choice and maybe we interpret to much in some incorrectnesses or details as we always want rare species in toy shape, too.

Well, as I wasn't not sure despite all the great explanations. I decided to contact an ornithologist used with seabirds and I tried to not influence him. I only told we were discussing around these two species already mentioned.
I will translate some parts of his answer and it is quite interesting.

Portuguese ornithologist said:
"The statue is not a perffect rendition of any of the species but of the two:

Note: Sorry, I don't know how to translate it, it means the figure is not correctly representing any species but works as a representation for both species.
Continuing with the words of the ornithologist...

"in my opinion, it is closer to a great cormorant Phalacrocorax carbo). In this case, a non breeding adulte. However, I am afraid a definitive identification can not be given."

It seems model can be used for both species but there is a tendency towards a great cormorant.
I confess this model was also a great cormorant for me until I receive it and checking the number of feathers on its tail. I was not expecting it to match any species, once I tried the same to identify some generic vulture figures of the genus Gyps and all of them had a lesser number of feathers then in real. Naturally sculptors have often to reduce the number of elements once it is not always possible to represent, it is particularly obvious with the number of teeth of crocodile figures, etc.
Though, as it matched exactly the same number of tail feathers of the European shag, that is also a cormorant, I considered it coulbe be a shag. Watching pictures, I confess that despite all these explanations, I have lots of difficulties to identify them and the Papo figure seemed as plausible for one species as it is for the other.
Though, I agree the head/bill/crest works better for a great cormorant and the number of tail feathers should never be considered a more important detail when we are talking about a toy.
I think for wiki we can list it to the genus level or as a great cormorant but in our collections I think it is acceptable that we use it as any of these two species. If I owned the Japanese figure of the great cormorant, I'd surely use the Papo model as an European shag until a definitive representation of this last species is released.
There are a few figures that lack acuraccy and mix features of two different species but in this particular figure I don't think it is terrible as in other figures. Both species are really similar in my opinion. It is not like mixing a warthog with a babirusa.

So, thanks to this Portuguese ornithologist, I think, we are in the right way of our discovery :)

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Thank you and thanks to this ornithologist!
I have the Kaiyodo, too and it looks lot different than the cormorant present in my country. As I collet some subspecies, too, I think I will go the way of subspecies. But I think it´s clear, that everybody can use it as the figure he likes - even when it there are more reasonable possiblities. And when even an ornithologist is saying this, I think we clearly can use it as cormorant or shag.

Duck-Anch-Amun wrote:

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Thank you and thanks to this ornithologist!
I have the Kaiyodo, too and it looks lot different than the cormorant present in my country. As I collet some subspecies, too, I think I will go the way of subspecies. But I think it´s clear, that everybody can use it as the figure he likes - even when it there are more reasonable possiblities. And when even an ornithologist is saying this, I think we clearly can use it as cormorant or shag.

The best option is to call the Kaiyodo figure P. carbo sinensis and the Papo figure P. carbo carbo.

Also note, the Kaiyodo figure has breeding plumage, while the Papo one has non-breeding plumage. So, you get biological differences in the two figures as well ;-)

Basically the ornithologist agreed with what Kosta mentioned and with what was the tendency of the most part of the members. I think Blaine’s suggestion is also a very good option and Blaine is also getting good in finding good excuses to buy more models. I just hope that Papo continues releasing seabirds that are not commonly seen in toy shape as it is the cormorant and the albatroos.. That’s particularly interesting for a company that never released a gull.

Roger wrote:

Basically the ornithologist agreed with what Kosta mentioned and with what was the tendency of the most part of the members. I think Blaine’s suggestion is also a very good option and Blaine is also getting good in finding good excuses to buy more models. I just hope that Papo continues releasing seabirds that are not commonly seen in toy shape as it is the cormorant and the albatroos.. That’s particularly interesting for a company that never released a gull.

They should definitely release a razorbill next year

But the discussion about this model always have been between great cormorant and double-crested cormorant, not between great cormorant and european shag...

@Blaine
That´s exactly what I meant, just in better english

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Looking at photos, you are absolutely right...

Considering this model still generates a lot of debate, I’d love to see a walk around from someone confortable with bird identification. I also would love to hear what turns this figure plausible for a double-crested cormorant.