Phillip Segal - minor vintage UK manufacturer

Wow, that's are very old figurines, right ? I think, they are very, very nice!    

Cheetahfan wrote:

Wow, that's are very old figurines, right ? I think, they are very, very nice!    

Right, they were made for just two short periods, 1938-40 and (interrupted by World War 2) 1947-51, by Phillip Segal (who died in 1951).

Olliesegal posting here is his grandson.

Thank you, Dave! This is very interesting!  

Cheetahfan wrote:

Thank you, Dave! This is very interesting!  

Collecting vintage figures has that extra dimension of interest, learning about who made them, both company owners and sometimes freelance designers, so you can find figures made by different companies which look similar in style, because the same person designed both.

Also the complication, when trying to discover who made what (they don't all have a company underneath), that sometimes moulds were sold by one company to another - then it is down to trying to identify painting styles and colours to determine who owned the mould when a particular item in your collection was made.

Miniature antiques really.

Two recently bought mounted western figures help demonstrate the connection regarding moulds between Segal and Crescent.

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On the left, 2 Crescent. On the right, 2 Segal.
Note that leg positions of the horses have been switched to different sides, but otherwise they look very similar, to my mind all 4 moulds were designed by the same person, presumably Phillip Segal.

As far as I know, the two on the left were only sold by Crescent, and the use of metallic paint for the skin of the Indian was very much a Crescent thing, with all Segal Indians painted with brown skin like the one on the right. Therefore we must assume Mr Segal sold these moulds before producing them himself. Or did he make the moulds especially for Crescent? Or will examples of the 2 on the left turn up one day with a characteristic Segal style paint job?

I'll send a PM to Ollie, so he sees this, and maybe has some comments.

Interesting,  looks that copies are not a modern thing:)

widukind wrote:

Interesting,  looks that copies are not a modern thing:)

They're certainly not. Britains Ltd started making hollow cast lead toy soldiers in 1893, and suffered from competition of cheap copies of their figures almost from the start, many from ex-employees who set up small operations. UK copyright law was changed a bit in 1900, which made it easier for Britains to sue copiers, which they succeeded in doing twice in 1902, against Hanks Brothers and James Renvoize. Both copier companies continued in business at least until 1914, but they had to make their own original design moulds after 1902.

Of course, in the case of the Crescent and Segal mounted Cowboys and Indians it is probably not a case of unethical copying, but rather happily agreed sales of moulds from Segal to Crescent. The questions about them which remain are only about the date (while Phillip Segal was still in business? Or moulds sold by his family after he died in 1951?), and whether the two figures sold by Crescent, with Crescent style painting, were ever made, painted and sold by Segal first? If so, we are probably looking at very low numbers, perhaps just a modest test batch to check the moulds were OK.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your post.  

I agree that the different manufacturers must have used the same person to do the moulds.  From what I know, Phillip didn't design the moulds himself.  He had a designer and perhaps this person also worked for Crescent?

For the mounted cowboy and native americans above, a distinctive difference is also the horses tail.

Where did you buy these?  The Segal native american looks in great condition.

Crescent bought in most of their moulds too, often from other companies which were closing down.

I bought the two Crescent ones recently at one of the Shepton Mallet general antique fairs, from a very good specialist toy dealer, Bob Skinner, who regularly comes down to the S.M. antique fairs from somewhere way up north.
They were in a box of mostly Crescent lead cowboys and Indians which Bob sold to me cheap, partly because I'm a regular customer, and partly because Crescent isn't up-market enough for him.
He sells exceedingly good , and exceedingly expensive , vintage toys.

I can't remember where I bought the two Segal ones - it was several years ago. I think it was at one of the events at the Shepton Mallet Showground, antique fair, flea market or toy fair.

Dave and Ollie, thanks once more for your very interesting imput! I really enjoy reading about these stories of vintage companies, their connections and misteries.

Yes, thank you very much

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Hi
First time on forum. Interesting read above.
I think I might have some Segal items. Am I correct?
Regards

Cscshop2013 wrote:

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Hi
First time on forum. Interesting read above.
I think I might have some Segal items. Am I correct?
Regards

Welcome here :)

Many thanks.
Nick

Cscshop2013 wrote:

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Hi
First time on forum. Interesting read above.
I think I might have some Segal items. Am I correct?
Regards

Hi and welcome to the forum!

I see 5 Segal items in your photo, 2 Indians lying firing rifles, 2 cowboys standing firing rifles, and the mounted soldier at the back.

I'm intrigued by your figure of little girl holding baby/doll near the front of the photo - never seen that before & no idea who made it.

Hi
Many thanks for confirming those.
My friend said the 5 green soldiers, 2 guards are in The Great book of Hollow Cast figures by N.Joplin. Also the little girl carrying a baby is supposedly part of a fairy tale set, the one that contains the Shoe House. Do you think that's right? Waiting to see them in his book...
Regards
Nick

Cscshop2013 wrote:

Hi
Many thanks for confirming those.
My friend said the 5 green soldiers, 2 guards are in The Great book of Hollow Cast figures by N.Joplin. Also the little girl carrying a baby is supposedly part of a fairy tale set, the one that contains the Shoe House. Do you think that's right? Waiting to see them in his book...
Regards
Nick

I've checked the Joplin books ('yellow' and 'blue' books), and yes, you're correct about those - all Segal.

This just leaves the 2 cowboys firing pistols - which are Crescent.

Hi
Many thanks for that.
Regarding animals, did Segal have any makers marks or any identification on his animals?
Regards
Nick

Hi, Cscshop, and wellcome here

Imagine that you have an old lead model that Dave has never seen before

Hi
Is that good?

I'm pretty good at identifying vintage UK figures, so anything I don't immediately identify (doesn't mean I have them, just that I usually know of them) is probably pretty rare.

No identifying marks of Segal items - you just have to go by the cartoony style.
As you've no doubt already read in this thread, there is the added complication of moulds being bought/sold/copied/etc.

Hi
Many thanks for the info.
My favourite items are motorbikes by Britains, John Hill Co and by Fry.
I don't have a big collection by any means I keep the best and sell the rest.
I see that the forum has a selling area. Will probably make use of that at some point.
Have recently put a couple of my collections on eBay as I have a shop there. Like most things it started as a hobby and went in that direction last year. They are of the Cameron Highlanders. If you want to check it out my store is called cscshop2013.
Finding good reference books is hard when you are starting out. As I say I have only been doing it for a year. Do you have any suggestions. My friend has the yellow Joplin book which I have borrowed for the week along with The Great Book of Britains. Both I like. Also have personally the A Rose book ACollectors Guide to Toy Soldiers.
Regards
Nick

My policy on reference books is to buy all of them!
For starters you need all of the main books by Joplin & his pals:
Joplin 'Yellow'
Joplin 'Green' (non military Britains lead, which includes wild west)
Joplin 'Blue' (non military other UK makers lead)
If you collect/deal in them, also Joplin US Dimestore (cover different shade of green)

I have spare copies of a few other books I could sell. I'll get them out of the box they're in.

Do you collect/deal in plastics too? If so, you'll need all the 'Specials' published by Plastic Warrior magazine.
And the 5 books about Britains plastic by Barney Brown and/or Peter Cole.

Hi
Many thanks.
Just been on Amazon and ordered Joplin Green, Richards book and J.Ruddle books plus one other. The later three cost a few pounds in total. The Joplin one more expensive.
Let me know which ones you have for sale and prices.
Have just posted on the non animal thread.
Regards
Nick

Dave do you know who made this item? Regards

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