Susanne's 2015 newcomers

Thankyou, friends

trovalsa wrote:

They are so lovely! The Trakehner mare in particular has a very beautiful colour.

Although I would say your Quarter Horse is a Champagne, probably a Classic Champagne, as Smoky Black is, in fact, undistinguishable from normal black. What the Cream gene does is discolour the red pigment and, since black horses have no red pigment, only black, their colour does not change, unless they are homozygous Cream. :)

You are only half right.
Quite often the cream gene is not visible on a black horse, but it is not totally unusual that a it is. Sometimes they are so light that they are called "lion coloured"  
We see it in Icelandic horses, where the champagne does not exist, but certainly also in other breeds.  HERE are some pictures ( even if there are also other colours) .
It runs in some blood lines, but does not depend on how deep black the base colour is, or if the horse is homozygote for black or not.  

But you are right. The champagne gene certainly exists in quater horses. Here are some pictures. Aren't they lighter ?  

Congratulations for you and hurray for Yvette :)

SUSANNE wrote:

Thankyou, friends

trovalsa wrote:

They are so lovely! The Trakehner mare in particular has a very beautiful colour.

Although I would say your Quarter Horse is a Champagne, probably a Classic Champagne, as Smoky Black is, in fact, undistinguishable from normal black. What the Cream gene does is discolour the red pigment and, since black horses have no red pigment, only black, their colour does not change, unless they are homozygous Cream. :)

You are only half right.
Quite often the cream gene is not visible on a black horse, but it is not totally unusual that a it is. Sometimes they are so light that they are called "lion coloured"  
We see it in Icelandic horses, where the champagne does not exist, but certainly also in other breeds.  HERE are some pictures ( even if there are also other colours) .
It runs in some blood lines, but does not depend on how deep black the base colour is, or if the horse is homozygote for black or not.  

But you are right. The champagne gene certainly exists in quater horses. Here are some pictures. Aren't they lighter ?  

My genetics professor always said they are no different from a black horse phenotypically, and quite a few equine colour genetics people say so as well.    It seems quite a few of those smokey blacks on google are simply sun bleached though, or even other colours, or mixed with other genes - there are a couple of grullos and bays and silvers thrown in there, too.

This is a friesian - so, truly a black horse, as the cream gene does not exist on friesians, yet he looks like a smoky black, as his coat was bleached by the sun. Perhaps your quarter horse is a sun bleached black? From what I've seen, at least in QHs, even smoky black ones do not look very light, unless mixed with other genes.

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I know Icelandics spend quite a lot of time outside, at least in their native country - perhaps that is why they seem lighter than most? Or maybe they are simply genetically predisposed to it, just as some true blacks are genetically predisposed to fading more or less.

Not all champagnes are light (here is a good example of a darker Classic Champagne) but I agree that it is not the right shade, especially in the belly and flanks.

By the way - I hope I'm not coming across as a "know-it-all", I simply find genetics very interesting and I like discussing them, but of course I don't know everything - I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

No, you are not stepping on anybody's toes, - and I do not want to boast.
And you are right, sometimes people mistake sunbleached for smoky.

But I I have spent many years studying horse colours, - and breeding cream-horses in particular too.
I even had the great honour to proof-read a scientific , and internationally approved book about horse colours.
And I am sorry. Your professor was wrong !

Below you see some Smoky Iceys, which I have known myself, including their ancestors and offspring, - they ARE Smoky black !!!

The first one even had more BEC foals , here second one , - the ultimate 100 % proof that she has a cream gene.
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This one belonged to one of my good friends, - his mom was palomino and his dad black, he had yellow eyes.
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Cream-gene horses are much lighter during winter, so many dark smokies can even be almost golden during winter.

But it is correct, - black-creams can also be completely black.
I even borrowed a black mare with a BEC foal for a year. And she was black, and nothing but black, also during winter.
And in Iceland a BEC mare had tree of her sons approved for stud, - all 100 % black.

But that does not mean that Smokes do not exist, - they certainly do  

I am happy that all the horses are well arrived in Denmark. Susanne, you have made really beautiful photos. I personally like the Hanoverian best.

75senta75 wrote:

I am happy that all the horses are well arrived in Denmark. Susanne, you have made really beautiful photos. I personally like the Hanoverian best.  

Thankyou, dear Yvette !
Yes, that Hanoverian is a beautful model, - one of the best they have made the last 6 years

Oh, what a nice surprise and amazing gift

Lovely new horses Susanne! I love the colour of Trakhener and my favourite from these horses is also the Hanoverian. Hurray for Yvette for helping you finding these rare editions
It's enormously interesting what you wrote about smokey blacks too, what a beautiful colour indeed! I wonder if that was what Schleich intended to paint or they just did it by accident

Ana wrote:

Lovely new horses Susanne! I love the colour of Trakhener  and my favourite from these horses is also the Hanoverian. Hurray for Yvette for helping you finding these rare editions
It's enormously interesting what you wrote about smokey blacks too, what a beautiful colour indeed! I wonder if that was what Schleich intended to paint or they just did it by accident

I am 99,99% sure they did it by accident

Susanne - thank you for the information! :) I'm not surprised my professor was wrong, what she tells us very often is as she uses outdated information - she also told us homozygous roan foals are lethal, heh. But since there are a lot of people who know genetics in that group, including Lesli Kathman, (who wrote Equine Tapestry) I thought it would be trustworthy. Apparently not!

I always found it a bit strange that cream supposedly did not affect black hair, yet double cream did. Apparently the answer is it does!

(and I didn't mean to say smoky black doesn't exist - it does, of course, I meant simply that it cannot be seen, but I stand corrected. :))

Thankyou, dear Pip

The problem with research on shades of horse colour is extremely difficult, because people mistake them for other colours. For instance the mom of my BEC was registered as chestnut. She was even judged and accepted in the stud book both in Iceland, Germany and Denmark, - I have seen her, and she was clearly a dark palomino

The smokies are often registered as blacks, or sooty-something, or even as light bay or dun !!!
But if you have seen one in real, you never mistake them again.

Well, in icelandic horses the roan is homozygote IS lethal !!!!
On Iceland the farmers association promised a large prize for the farmer, who could get a roan stallion judged as a first prize stud horse.
At the same time they told that you will not get more roans out of crossing two roans, - just fewer foals.
But a farmer sent a whole flock of good, roan mares and a very fine, roan stallion to an island and left them there during the summer.
The number of foals next spring was , however,  quite low.
And app half were roans, not  3/4 as should have been expected from a dominant gene, - or more than 3/4, if any of the mares had been homozygote.
The 1/4 of the foals which were homozygote were clearly missing , the mares had lost them some time during preganacy !
This is only one example in many.
The problem with scientific proof is, that many people confuse roans, roaning, and greys, so the statistics are not trustworthy, unless the scientist has seen each horse and - ha, ha, knows how they look

Among the Belgian draft horses in Denmark the roan colour is very much desired, but they can NOT make all  -or even the majority - roan.
If they could, they would certainly do it. It would be very, very easy as the colour is 100% dominant, and just one, good, homozygote stallion could change the whole picture .
Still many of the breeders of Belgians claim that it is only a theory...old habits die very, very hard !

Sorry, I have to mention another stupid superstition about colours : Not many years ago the breeders of Connemaras claimed that BECs were ill, so they were not allowed in the stud book, - many even claimed that their parents carried a dangerous illness ( It was actually themselves who were ill (in the head)) .
I do not know if they have become wiser now, though.

Sorry, sorry. No more from me about this      

Oh yes - I know there are a few breeds where homozygous roan is lethal, but it's not as general as our professor would have us believe. Even UC Davis, which I consider a reputable source, says that much, and there are tested homozygous roans so, it is possible. :)

Hopefully now colour testing will take precedence over simply looking when doing studies on equine colour, it's obviously much more accurate!

Oh, yes, I had heard about the problems with BEC Connemaras. It's like people who believe lighter hooves are more easily damaged than dark hooves!

Okay, I will shut up too!

trovalsa wrote:

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Okay, I will shut up too!

...........  

SUSANNE wrote:

Ana wrote:

Lovely new horses Susanne! I love the colour of Trakhener  and my favourite from these horses is also the Hanoverian. Hurray for Yvette for helping you finding these rare editions
It's enormously interesting what you wrote about smokey blacks too, what a beautiful colour indeed! I wonder if that was what Schleich intended to paint or they just did it by accident

I am 99,99% sure they did it by accident

They are beautiful, congrats Susanne!

Fascinating discussion! Thank you both Susanne and Pip for increasing our knowledge.

I grew up around Arabians; roans are vanishingly rare (the color was heavily discriminated against, at least in the US, until recently) and the cream dilute is not present. So I did not know much about the heritability and phenotypic effects of the traits.

And as for records, I've looked up descendants of my mother's sweet stallion Tifer online. He was a lovely metallic blood bay, and registered as such. The records label him a chestnut! (bay is dominant over chestnut, he did carry and throw many chestnuts, but... !)

my pet peeve is foals painted grey or white. Hello, foals are almost never (rareish homozygous creams the only exception I can think of right away, maybe also champagne?) born white, and none are born grey- some colors (black and darker ones) appear mousy in newborns and shed out darker; horses which will become greys (and eventually white, greys don't stay that way) are born a 'regular' color, and usually a dark shade of it. Blue/brown/bay roans can look grey, but they're born dark too, and their heads stay dark. Grey foals are dark, usually darker/purer shades of the color than their non-greying siblings, with a smattering of grey hairs around the eyes and the head greys first.

This is what I learned growing up, sound right to you guys? Like I said, it's experience with Arabs and half Arabs only. Second pet peeve is Arab sculpts in non Arab colors!
(if I could afford it, I'd love a Weathergirl Breyer one day, but I've never seen one with a good real Arab paint job anyhow!)

And congratulations Susanne on the great additions! The QH is a nifty one, intentional paint job or not!

Thankyou, Pip !!!
WOW, growing up with Arabian horses

What you write about greys and roans as foals is exacly what I have observed also

The case of Tife being recorded as chestnut is typical !!! That is also why scientific research can' t be based on pedigree records

AGAIN a parcel from the fantastic Yvette    

The ostrich chick !!!!  
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Isn't this juste the cutest chick ever ?  
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And the lovely butterflies, finding honey in an Agave-blossom  
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And then ! Ta-daaaaah !!!  The Special Edition Algäuer Cow  
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She is a wonderful cow,both beautyful and gentle, and smelling of warm hills and fresh grass...yes, yes, she does  
Here she is muching away together with her friend, the Fleckvieh cow 13134 from 2000 - 2008  
I am sure they are closely related    
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Congrats on some lovely models. :)

I like these babies that are really recently born creatures!
The cow is really a fortunate special edition once it resulted very beautiful.
Is it you what we see in the cow bell?

Thankyou, Laura and Roger    

Roger wrote:

...
Is it you what we see in the cow bell?

It must be a ghost

That baby ostridge is so flipping cute!

Such lovely new additions, congratulations! The cow is really beautiful, she has a very sweet look. The ostrich chick is so cute!

SUSANNE wrote:

Thankyou, Laura and Roger    

Roger wrote:

...
Is it you what we see in the cow bell?

It must be a ghost

Beautieful Schleich additions Susanne :)