Corrections for Toy Animal Wiki

The K&M "beetle" is in the category of Unidentified beetles, but it clearly reperesent a member of the genus Carabus so it should be in Ground beetles category:
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/K%26M_Beetle

Pardofelis wrote:

The K&M "beetle" is in the category of Unidentified beetles, but it clearly reperesent a member of the genus Carabus so it should be in Ground beetles category:
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/K%26M_Beetle

I followed your suggestion. Actually it looks a lot like Carabus melancholicus that is a species I played a lot as a kid.

Hello, I just find wrong(?) infos on TAI related to German companies VEB Plaho (the GDR era) and Marolin (post-GDR era):

(1)
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin_”Plaho-Tiere”_launched_after_1990
"...the turtle were not produced under the name of VEB Plaho..." but the VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Giant tortoise"

(2)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Set of three Penguins, one with Chick" but these are Marolin figures on the pic

(3)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Moose pair" but these are Marolin figures on the pic too...

If possible, please fix it :)

jarda wrote:

Hello, I just find wrong(?) infos on TAI related to German companies VEB Plaho (the GDR era) and Marolin (post-GDR era):

(1)
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin_”Plaho-Tiere”_launched_after_1990
"...the turtle were not produced under the name of VEB Plaho..." but the VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Giant tortoise"

(2)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Set of three Penguins, one with Chick" but these are Marolin figures on the pic

(3)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Moose pair" but these are Marolin figures on the pic too...

If possible, please fix it :)

Jarda,
1. I deleted the page of the turtle linked from Veb Plaho page because it is the same we can find on Marolin page,
2. I deleted the page of the moose pair linked from Veb Plaho page once both can be found already in that Marolin page you linked.
3. I moved and renamed the page of the penguins from Veb Plaho to that Marolin page.
I kept, however, broken links of moose pair and penguin set on Veb Plaho page. If I understand, there are Veb Plaho versions contrarily with what happens with the turtle, I have understood it correctly?

Roger wrote:

jarda wrote:

Hello, I just find wrong(?) infos on TAI related to German companies VEB Plaho (the GDR era) and Marolin (post-GDR era):

(1)
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin_”Plaho-Tiere”_launched_after_1990
"...the turtle were not produced under the name of VEB Plaho..." but the VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Giant tortoise"

(2)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Set of three Penguins, one with Chick" but these are Marolin figures on the pic

(3)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Moose pair" but these are Marolin figures on the pic too...

If possible, please fix it :)

Jarda,
1. I deleted the page of the turtle linked from Veb Plaho page because it is the same we can find on Marolin page,
2. I deleted the page of the moose pair linked from Veb Plaho page once both can be found already in that Marolin page you linked.
3. I moved and renamed the page of the penguins from Veb Plaho to that Marolin page.
I kept, however, broken links of moose pair and penguin set on Veb Plaho page. If I understand, there are Veb Plaho versions contrarily with what happens with the turtle, I have understood it correctly?

Exactly.

jarda wrote:

Roger wrote:

jarda wrote:

Hello, I just find wrong(?) infos on TAI related to German companies VEB Plaho (the GDR era) and Marolin (post-GDR era):

(1)
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin_”Plaho-Tiere”_launched_after_1990
"...the turtle were not produced under the name of VEB Plaho..." but the VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Giant tortoise"

(2)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Set of three Penguins, one with Chick" but these are Marolin figures on the pic

(3)
The page VEB Plaho page
https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho
displays "Moose pair" but these are Marolin figures on the pic too...

If possible, please fix it :)

Jarda,
1. I deleted the page of the turtle linked from Veb Plaho page because it is the same we can find on Marolin page,
2. I deleted the page of the moose pair linked from Veb Plaho page once both can be found already in that Marolin page you linked.
3. I moved and renamed the page of the penguins from Veb Plaho to that Marolin page.
I kept, however, broken links of moose pair and penguin set on Veb Plaho page. If I understand, there are Veb Plaho versions contrarily with what happens with the turtle, I have understood it correctly?

Exactly.

Thanks!

Thanks a lot for this info, Jarda. I was working on the Veb Plaho pages last weekend and I did wonder about the moose and the turtle. You don't have a photo of the old moose (and reindeer) by any chance, do you?

There is another, perhaps bigger issue with Marolin/Veb Plaho on TAW. A lot of the information about Veb Plaho is duplicated under Marolin: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin In particular, most of the "wild animals" are listed here too: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin_%E2%80%9DPlaho-Tiere%E2%80%9D_variations_after_1990,_Wild_animals. The same thing with the "farm animals".

I think the idea is that these Marolin pages show the figures with their post-1990 painting. However, they have the same sculpts as pre-1990 and TAW doesn't normally have separate pages for figures that are only different in painting style. Listing them completely separately doesn't make clear that they are the same sculpts. It may be best if we merge the Marolin and Veb Plaho pages, making clear at the top of this merged page that they are essentially the same company and what their history is. Not entirely sure what to do with the pre- and post-1990 painting styles, but perhaps they should be listed under the same figure with a clear note of which painting style is shown in a photo. What do you think?

It was a strange time. The figures of VEB Plaho was very often hard to find. In the GDR it was not possible to go in a toyshop and find the right figures. Often figures was not availabe, sometimes only 2 or 3 different bags. Some figures you found never in a shop.
So i got my penguins from my uncle (second hand), the ostrich i got from the owner of a toyshop (but also second hand)- because i ask every week
The hippotamus and the reindeer i only found on a christmas market. And so one.

In the beginning of the new era many figures was available in the Karstadt , new in town. But my childhood memories can not say the exactly time.

I could give it my best shot Roger.

Interesting story, Andreas. It's interesting that you say that Veb Plaho figures were hard to get, because they are quite easy to get second hand now. But perhaps the ones that are sold second hand now are mainly post-1990. Were many sold after the fall of the wall? Is the pre-1990 painting always different from post-1990, is there a particular way that you can see the difference?

rogerpgvg wrote:

Thanks a lot for this info, Jarda. I was working on the Veb Plaho pages last weekend and I did wonder about the moose and the turtle. You don't have a photo of the old moose (and reindeer) by any chance, do you?

There is another, perhaps bigger issue with Marolin/Veb Plaho on TAW. A lot of the information about Veb Plaho is duplicated under Marolin: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin In particular, most of the "wild animals" are listed here too: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin_%E2%80%9DPlaho-Tiere%E2%80%9D_variations_after_1990,_Wild_animals. The same thing with the "farm animals".

I think the idea is that these Marolin pages show the figures with their post-1990 painting. However, they have the same sculpts as pre-1990 and TAW doesn't normally have separate pages for figures that are only different in painting style. Listing them completely separately doesn't make clear that they are the same sculpts. It may be best if we merge the Marolin and Veb Plaho pages, making clear at the top of this merged page that they are essentially the same company and what their history is. Not entirely sure what to do with the pre- and post-1990 painting styles, but perhaps they should be listed under the same figure with a clear note of which painting style is shown in a photo. What do you think?

Here are the VEB Plaho mooses (see color of the antlers, the legs, fur, eyes and NO airbrush):


Unfortunately, I have these figures somewhere in boxes so I can not offer better quality photo now (but I can 100% guarantee these are not Marolins).

I think that separate pages for VEB Plaho and Marolin is better solution than merge these. The molds for most of figures are the same (not for mooses, reindeer, tortoise and some apes) but the manufacturer company has different owner, the figures were produced in different era, the painting style is slightly different, material used is different (Weich-PVC vs. MIRAVITHEN) and the price and availability (from collectors point of view) can be very different (compare e.g. Marolin vs. VEB Plaho penguins or mooses). Similar situation is e.g. with composite Durolin figures and Lineol "Masse" figures where similar (if not the same) molds were used but for collectors is important if the figure is Durolin or Lineol.

jarda wrote:

rogerpgvg wrote:

Thanks a lot for this info, Jarda. I was working on the Veb Plaho pages last weekend and I did wonder about the moose and the turtle. You don't have a photo of the old moose (and reindeer) by any chance, do you?

There is another, perhaps bigger issue with Marolin/Veb Plaho on TAW. A lot of the information about Veb Plaho is duplicated under Marolin: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin In particular, most of the "wild animals" are listed here too: https://toyanimalwiki.mywikis.net/wiki/Marolin_%E2%80%9DPlaho-Tiere%E2%80%9D_variations_after_1990,_Wild_animals. The same thing with the "farm animals".

I think the idea is that these Marolin pages show the figures with their post-1990 painting. However, they have the same sculpts as pre-1990 and TAW doesn't normally have separate pages for figures that are only different in painting style. Listing them completely separately doesn't make clear that they are the same sculpts. It may be best if we merge the Marolin and Veb Plaho pages, making clear at the top of this merged page that they are essentially the same company and what their history is. Not entirely sure what to do with the pre- and post-1990 painting styles, but perhaps they should be listed under the same figure with a clear note of which painting style is shown in a photo. What do you think?

Here are the VEB Plaho mooses (see color of the antlers, the legs, fur, eyes and NO airbrush):


Unfortunately, I have these figures somewhere in boxes so I can not offer better quality photo now (but I can 100% guarantee these are not Marolins).

I think that separate pages for VEB Plaho and Marolin is better solution than merge these. The molds for most of figures are the same (not for mooses, reindeer, tortoise and some apes) but the manufacturer company has different owner, the figures were produced in different era, the painting style is slightly different, material used is different (Weich-PVC vs. MIRAVITHEN) and the price and availability (from collectors point of view) can be very different (compare e.g. Marolin vs. VEB Plaho penguins or mooses). Similar situation is e.g. with composite Durolin figures and Lineol "Masse" figures where similar (if not the same) molds were used but for collectors is important if the figure is Durolin or Lineol.

You are right :)

rogerpgvg wrote:

Interesting story, Andreas. It's interesting that you say that Veb Plaho figures were hard to get, because they are quite easy to get second hand now. But perhaps the ones that are sold second hand now are mainly post-1990. Were many sold after the fall of the wall? Is the pre-1990 painting always different from post-1990, is there a particular way that you can see the difference?

I knows ( and i have seen a picture too in the western Germany Quelle catalogue) they was also sold and exported to western Germany. Like NO-Name animal figures.
And some figures was not hard to get like the ponies or the roedeers. And in all cities was different figures available. The most you had find in Berlin, as the capital of the GDR.
I was a collector since 1979 and the most i got with trades, this was very actually in that time.

Yes, apparently, they were also sold in West Germany, and before the fall of the wall also in many Eastern European countries.

It’s nice to see the old moose, Jarda. Thanks, I have put the photo on TAW; much better to have a low resolution photo than no photo at all.

If we decided to integrate Marolin and Veb Plaho, we should still make clear which paint versions are Marolin and which are Veb Plaho. I am not proposing to remove any information. I feel the current listing on TAW may be confusing for beginning Veb Plaho collectors, because when they see the Veb Plaho pages, they may not realise that there are later (often very similar looking) paint versions of the same sculpts. By having all information together in one place, the relationship between the earlier and later paint variants would become clearer.

I am not an expert on Veb Plaho/Marolin figures, but I have recently started collecting some figures and I find the history very interesting so I have tried to read what I could find. The distinction between the two companies is not so clear-cut. One could argue that the pre-1990 figures are in fact more appropriately listed as Marolin, because the company was called Marolin when they first developed and produced these figures in 1967. Initially, the figures were sold under the name Marolin. Even after the DDR expropriated Marolin from the Mahr family in 1972, the Marolin name remained for a couple of years, until 1975. During 1972-1990 the owners of the company were different (the DDR, though Mahr descendants remained involved as managers), but since 1990 the company is again owned by the Mahr family. Thus, the company had the same owners when the figures were first produced pre-1990 as it has post-1990 (different people, but same family) and the Mahr family were managers throughout its history.

But perhaps more important than ownership is that the pre- and post-1990 figures were produced in the same factory (same building) and with the same moulds, so there is clear continuity. The painting style and the plastic may have changed, but companies often do this (I wouldn’t be surprised if it changed within the pre-1990 period or within the post-1990 period too). The pre- and post-1990 painting is often very hard to distinguish. I recently bought some new Marolins (still sold by Marolin!), and the tapir, kangaroo, seal, anteater, black panther, lioness, camels and warthog look virtually identical to the Veb Plaho photos on TAW (I assume they are pre-1990?). There is other continuity in the painting style too. For example, one striking characteristic detail of many Marolin animals is that they have yellow eyes with a black pupil. I see this in my new Marolins but also in the pre-1990 photos on TAW.

If we want to keep the Marolin and Veb Plaho pages separate, then there are a few things to resolve. Can we always tell whether a figure should be listed as Veb Plaho or Marolin? The painting of some figures looks so similar that this may be hard. If we consider them different companies, we would normally also list the figures separately on the taxonomy pages. But this doesn’t feel quite right to me if they are so similar. And the integration has already taken place to some extent (not done by me). For example, several of the Veb Plaho individual figures pages say that the figures are available as a Marolin model. And the farm animals are listed as 1963-2010, so it includes the post-1990 period. The models launched after 1990 perhaps shouldn’t be under Veb Plaho, because they would be Marolin; at least the wording should make this clear.

Sorry, my point is far too long and I hope it doesn’t come across as too antagonistic. My opinion isn’t so important; more important is what other TAW visitors find clearest and most useful. The reason why I brought the issue up is because I wanted to see if others agree, so I appreciate your disagreement, Jarda

P.S.
Your information about the different plastics made me curious, Jarda, because I had read that the material pre- and post-1990 was the same. This website says that they started using polyethylene in 1967:
https://www.tberg.de/die-tiere-des-veb-plaho-hersteller-dieser-figuren-richard-mahr-bis-1972/
And this website says that they are currently using polyethylene:
https://www.marolin.de/en/shop/toy-worlds/toy-figures/1329/play-figures-set-wild-animals

Looking it up, I find that MIRAVITHEN is the same as polyethylene-vinyl acetate. It seems like polyethylene-vinyl acetate isn’t quite the same as real polyethylene, but it’s quite similar, so that could cause some confusion. But Weich-PVC is different from both. I am not a chemist and I don’t know whether these websites are right, but it would be interesting to know if the material is indeed different (we often list it on TAW). Do you know where you got the information about the different plastics from?

Hello, Roger,

the owners changes were simple - when the family company was expropriated and then re-privatized again.

The painting style of the animals from the GDR era is not so hard to distinguish from the new Marolins (the eyes, no airbrush...) in most cases for experienced collector but there were animals with minimalistic paint too (black panthers, lions family...).

"If we consider them different companies, we would normally also list the figures separately on the taxonomy pages." As these WERE different companies so we should list the figures separately on the taxonomy pages of course. Please look for example on TAI for muskox or indian rhino made by Schleich and then M+B - the same mold, similar paint, are you able easily distinguish these? And these figures are listed separately.

"And the farm animals are listed as 1963-2010, so it includes the post-1990 period." - incorrect info, should be deleted or corrected, the situation is identic for the farm range as for the wildlife: There are VEB Plaho and Marolins.

It would be very useful if the TAI listed every figure standalone - we know how the Plaho animals were sold (at least in the Eastern Europe but there were another sets for export to the West), so we know numbers and content of every bag, but Marolin changed the distribution schema. First Marolin sold most figures standalone or as small groups (similar but no identic as VEB Plaho) but now offers 3 large groups with these "Plaho" animals as sets, see their website: https://www.marolin.de/en/shop/toy-worlds/toy-figures/


About the material infos - I used the same source, Torsten Berg website (German expert for the GDR plastic figures, author of the unofficial katalog), where e.g. in the VEB Plaho vs. Marolin mooses comparison wrotes: "Die MAROLIN Elche sind aus dem Material MIRAVITHEN hergestellt und nicht aus dem in der DDR herkömmlichen Weich-PVC. Eine Griffprobe verdeutlicht schnell den Unterschied." Don´t trust the material info from English version of Marolin company website, use the German one, because of wrong translation (see: Polyethylen, Kunststoff, Resin).

BTW: In the Torstens katalog are standalone sections for "Tierfiguren vom VEB PLAHO" and "Tierfiguren von Marolin" too

Thanks for continuing this discussion and reading my long post, Jarda. So I am going to write another long one .  I agree with almost everything you say.

Let me first say again that whatever we do, the distinction between Veb Plaho and Marolin should be clear in TAW (but also the relationship). And I don’t intend to make any changes unless we have agreement.

The plastic: I believe you are right that the pre- and post-1990 plastic was different. But I don’t completely understand. Your quote from Torsten Berg makes quite clear that MIRAVITHEN was used post-1990 and suggests that pre-1990 was Weich-PVC. But Torsten Berg also says “So trug man 1967 auch den neuen technischen Möglichkeiten Rechnung und bediente sich des Werkstoffes Polyethylen um künftig Figuren aus Kunststoff in Spritzgusstechnik herzustellen.” So pre-1990 was polyethylene. But as I understand it, polyethylene isn’t the same as Weich-PVC, it is actually more similar to MIRAVITHEN. Confusing. I wish Torsten was still on the forum to clarify this.

jarda wrote:

"And the farm animals are listed as 1963-2010, so it includes the post-1990 period." - incorrect info, should be deleted or corrected, the situation is identic for the farm range as for the wildlife: There are VEB Plaho and Marolins.

Agreed.

jarda wrote:

It would be very useful if the TAI listed every figure standalone - we know how the Plaho animals were sold (at least in the Eastern Europe but there were another sets for export to the West), so we know numbers and content of every bag, but Marolin changed the distribution schema. First Marolin sold most figures standalone or as small groups (similar but no identic as VEB Plaho) but now offers 3 large groups with these "Plaho" animals as sets, see their website: https://www.marolin.de/en/shop/toy-worlds/toy-figures/

Agreed. The problem is that in many cases, we don’t have photos of the individual figures, but if someone could take them, that would be great.

jarda wrote:

"If we consider them different companies, we would normally also list the figures separately on the taxonomy pages." As these WERE different companies so we should list the figures separately on the taxonomy pages of course. Please look for example on TAI for muskox or indian rhino made by Schleich and then M+B - the same mold, similar paint, are you able easily distinguish these? And these figures are listed separately.

You have convinced me that, if we consider them as two companies, it’s quite OK to list both the Marolin and Veb Plaho models under the taxonomy pages. This is indeed what normally happens in TAW.

But I am not quite convinced yet that we should consider them different companies. I understand that there were big changes during expropriation and reprivatisation, but there was also a lot of continuity in management and production.

The most obvious problem is that the 1967-1990 versions were first developed and produced when the company’s name was still Marolin (and was under the ownership of the Mahr family). The deprivitisation only took place in 1972. Why should we list them under just Veb Plaho if they were first made by Marolin? It’s actually Marolin that deserves the credit for first producing these figures. Or is the 1972-90 painting also different from 1967-72?

If we consider pre-1972 Marolin to be different from Veb Plaho, shouldn’t we say that pre-1972 Marolin is also a different company from post-1990 Marolin? The differences between pre-1972 and post-1990 are probably bigger, certainly in terms of the animal models they produced.

jarda wrote:

BTW: In the Torstens katalog are standalone sections for "Tierfiguren vom VEB PLAHO" and "Tierfiguren von Marolin" too

Yes, but in the same catalogue . Not so different from what I am suggesting: Under the same TAW page (~catalogue), but making clear that they are different versions. For example, we could have a gallery with a picture of the pre-1990 version on the left and the post-1990 version on the right. But there are other ways of making the difference clear while having them under the same main page.

rogerpgvg wrote:

jarda wrote:

BTW: In the Torstens katalog are standalone sections for "Tierfiguren vom VEB PLAHO" and "Tierfiguren von Marolin" too

Yes, but in the same catalogue . Not so different from what I am suggesting: Under the same TAW page (~catalogue), but making clear that they are different versions. For example, we could have a gallery with a picture of the pre-1990 version on the left and the post-1990 version on the right. But there are other ways of making the difference clear while having them under the same main page.

BUT... The exact katalog name is: "Plastetiere aus der DDR - Der Sammlerkatalog uber die Tiere des VEB PLAHO und der Firma MAROLIN" following with two company logos - the author clearly makes the difference between these two companies. Moreover, there is another chapter in the katalog: "Tierfiguren anderer Hersteller" so there can be figures from another companies (e.g. Fischer KG, PGH Effelder etc.) - I don´t have such katalog but I am just sure this katalog is not dedicated to one company products only and in such case is one TAI page for one (such) katalog not enough.

Your solution is OK for figures from ONE company with different paint for specific years, e.g. for Mojo with their leopards, lynxes, cheetahs variants etc. but I still doubt if the VEB Plaho vs. Marolin is the same case...

Thank you for your patience, Roger, as I don´t collaborate on TAI, I presented only my point of view.

Thanks a lot for expressing your opinion, Jarda. I have learnt several things about Marolin/Veb Plaho from the discussion with you. No one else appears to support my merger proposal, so I'll leave the TAW Marolin and Veb Plaho pages separate. There are other things that can be done to make the relationship between Marolin and Veb Plaho clearer and I'll work on them when I find the time.

I have revised the Marolin section, https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin, tidying it up and trying to make the connection with Veb Plaho clearer. Please let me know what you think.

I have slightly renamed the headings in the "Plaho tiere" section. Ideally, the pages themselves should also be renamed, but I don't have the rights to do this.

rogerpgvg wrote:

I have revised the Marolin section, https://toyanimal.info/wiki/Marolin, tidying it up and trying to make the connection with Veb Plaho clearer. Please let me know what you think.

I have slightly renamed the headings in the "Plaho tiere" section. Ideally, the pages themselves should also be renamed, but I don't have the rights to do this.

It is a brave initiative. It is really a complex section.
I don't have knowledge about these series to complete your editing work.
Let me know please what is supposed to be renamed and I do it.

Thanks for your help, Rogério. I have moved some pages (renaming them). If you could just delete the original pages, that would be great. Can you see these or does it help if I say which ones?

rogerpgvg wrote:

Thanks for your help, Rogério. I have moved some pages (renaming them). If you could just delete the original pages, that would be great. Can you see these or does it help if I say which ones?

I can see and I will delete them. Thanks!

After some technical hiccups, I have now tidied up the Marolin and VEB Plaho pages. Jarda, if you see anything that you think isn't quite right, let me know!

rogerpgvg wrote:

After some technical hiccups, I have now tidied up the Marolin and VEB Plaho pages. Jarda, if you see anything that you think isn't quite right, let me know!

:) Roger, I think you made great work!

The only notice:
It would be great if every section on the VEB Plaho page is made the same way. Now the "Wildlife" section has gallery layout, "Farm" section table layout, "Prehistoric life" and "Wild West" contain the list only. I prefer the gallery layout for easiest overview.

Thanks, Jarda. I prefer the gallery layout too, quicker to find a figure. How about this: https://toyanimal.info/wiki/VEB_Plaho

We only have 1 or 2 photos for the farm and prehistoric section. I think it looks a bit ugly if almost all images in the gallery say "no image available".