Rogerpgvg's Britains collection: horses with cart and roller

Interresting point Roger, but if we wontinue like that you will need to change the title of your topic 

Based on the book, it's pretty convincing. Now these photos may have been used for other books... Anyway, I agree that the similarities between some models are striking even if the photos are misleading, for example the hippopotamus from Britains is bigger than BF's.

BF was a small, very small company compared to Britains.
 One of the two brothers was the sculptor. 
The manufacturing workshop was in the same courtyard as the dwelling of the Blancherie brothers.
The last of the two brothers lived next to his machines and lead figurines until his death. It was still possible to visit him in the 1990s and 2000s. I'm trying to get info from guys who visited him then.

Roger, your analysis is quite impressive!
I really don't have anything useful to add but that hippo illustration looks like a picture of the Britains hippo, so, I think the illustrator copied Britains but by antecipation as a silly cartoon character used to say. I enjoy particularly that you give more atention to the wild boar than to the hippo. If two different brands sculpt a very realistic hippo with the same pose, both models will look inevitably very similar, since hippos look all basically the same.
With wild boars, the chance that it happens are not that high because wild boars vary a lot over their range. Thus, if they look similar, it is at least somewhat suspicious.
I also can share that even modern companies, despite all the easy access to pictures online or other sources, they often use models from other popular brands in their worktable. Sometimes the inspiration is so effective that the final result looks like a copy. We can see with a few initial Mojö Fun figures and I am quite convinced Eikoh also used references from major brands to sculpt some of their smaller models.

Christophe: It would be very interesting to get more information about Blancherie Frères. When exactly did they start their production and what were their production methods?
The BF models usually weren't exact copies of the Britains so whether they were the same size doesn't really matter for the argument. Sometimes the legs were changed, sometimes the tail, sometimes the size. 
Do you mean that another book may have used exactly the same illustrations or that it may have  used slightly changed illustrations?

Rogério: I like the wild board example, because I can really feel what the BF sculptor thought: "Let's make it less static and change the leg so that it looks like it is walking." In a way, the BF sculptor was more original than the Britains sculptor, who just copied the picture exactly.

This BF otter is also interesting:


Britains didn't make this otter, but Johillco made a very similar one (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113989474808?hash=item1a8a4d59f8:g:wRoAAOSwZEdd3Uzx):


According to one Ebay seller, the Johillco is from 1935, so BF may also have imitated other companies. I am not very familiar with pre-war animal models, but I wonder whether there are more BF models that look like the models of other brands.

A very interesting debate!

Both of them are copies of the Hausser elastolin otter

It's really interesting....Hilco also copied this otter. Barney Brown had these ones for sale and I also have several. His website says...'Hilco - pair of plastic Otters, moulded in white plastic with tan spray-painted upper-parts, from the Johillco hollow-cast lead mould and marked 'England' to their underbellies'

Here are some pics (not mine) of the Hausser Otter and Lizard 

The Hausser otter is a "copy" of the Pfeiffer's but since Hausser bought Pfeiffer...

So the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!"

If BF imitated Hausser Elastolin, then it's less surprising that they also imitated Britains. Everything suggests that BF imitated Britains, not the other way around.

Ros: I think Hilco is Johillco (= John Hill & Co). The initially they made the otter in lead and later in plastic.

There's a good chance that you're right, what bothers me is the dates, that means that the series would only had a few years of existence and would not have started in the 20s. I hope to have reliable information from France soon.

I really like these otters with fish! It's a fun sculpt to begin with, but it's also fun to see all the variations. Thanks for sharing these!

Kikimalou wrote:

There's a good chance that you're right, what bothers me is the dates, that means that the series would only had a few years of existence and would not have started in the 20s. I hope to have reliable information from France soon.

It will be very interesting to find out more! It may well be that BF started in the 1920s, but they may have started with other products. They may even have made some animal figures in the 1920s, but the Britains imitations probably came later. Generally, new, lesser known companies imitate well-known large brands. If a large company like Britains imitated a small company that had started just a few years earlier, then this would go against this general pattern. Most likely, when Britains started their zoo range in 1929, they did not know Blancherie Frères.

ros wrote:

It's really interesting....Hilco also copied this otter. Barney Brown had these ones for sale and I also have several. His website says...'Hilco - pair of plastic Otters, moulded in white plastic with tan spray-painted upper-parts, from the Johillco hollow-cast lead mould and marked 'England' to their underbellies'

Very interesting.

Whatever firm we are discussing Pfeiffer, Elastolin or John Hill and Company the otter with the fish is a close copy of a Vienna bronze otter with a fish in its mouth which was made circa 1890-1900.

See second to last photograph:

http://graysantiques.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-art-of-cold-painted-vienna-bronze.html

Roger, your Britains fox running may have been inspired by this Austrian bronze fox:

https://www.wheelerantiques.co.uk/bronzes-1/antique-austrian-cold-painted-bronze-fox-manner-of-bergman-marked-geschutzt

So, you never know it may be that Britains and BF were not copying book illustrations but well known, at the time, miniature bronze sculptures. Apologies for adding this into the mix.

Christophe, agree the photos in the 1903 book could be published in other books too.

Very interesting finds! Yes, the fox and the otter look very similar to the later toys. It shows that the original can date back to even before toy animals were made. George noted earlier that the Britains fox is very similar to 19th century sculptures and this shows it.

Some Britains models are so similar to the illustrations in "Living animals of the world" that it almost impossible that they didn't copy from it. But yes, other models may have been copied from sculptures.

"Living animals of the world" was translated into French. But regardless of whether there were other books with the same illustrations, we still need to explain why the illustrations of the wild boar and hippo are more similar to the Britains than the BF models and why some illustrations were only used by Britains, but there are no illustrations that were only used by BF. The conclusions we draw would be the same.

rogerpgvg wrote:

Kikimalou wrote:

There's a good chance that you're right, what bothers me is the dates, that means that the series would only had a few years of existence and would not have started in the 20s. I hope to have reliable information from France soon.

It will be very interesting to find out more! It may well be that BF started in the 1920s, but they may have started with other products. They may even have made some animal figures in the 1920s, but the Britains imitations probably came later. Generally, new, lesser known companies imitate well-known large brands. If a large company like Britains imitated a small company that had started just a few years earlier, then this would go against this general pattern. Most likely, when Britains started their zoo range in 1929, they did not know Blancherie Frères.

Well, BF was more well known in France that the lesser known British brand you are talking about... Britains you say ? Does it live in water ? 

I know it could seem incredible for British collectors but even for guys like me, born in the 50's or 60's, Britains was an unknown brand, I discovered the famous Britains in the early 2000 when I began to collect toys, I know it was the same for Caracal. We knew the Elastolin 54mm because they were sold in France by Ougen in the 70's, we knew Timpo but Britains ? What is Britains ? The only things that looks a bit like Britains were the Prior and I confused them at first with the Britains. 

Nevertheless I can agree with you but it would mean BF would have produced an Emu, a Prezwalski horse, an anteater before making a bison or an hippo ? It is a weird idea too...

Chris Sweetman wrote:

Whatever firm we are discussing Pfeiffer, Elastolin or John Hill and Company the otter with the fish is a close copy of a Vienna bronze otter with a fish in its mouth which was made circa 1890-1900.

See second to last photograph:

http://graysantiques.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-art-of-cold-painted-vienna-bronze.html

Roger, your Britains fox running may have been inspired by this Austrian bronze fox:

https://www.wheelerantiques.co.uk/bronzes-1/antique-austrian-cold-painted-bronze-fox-manner-of-bergman-marked-geschutzt

Since Pfeiffer is an Austrian company, it could explain this. Nevertheless some "famous well known Austrian cold painted models" are false and maybe this otter was made after Pfeiffer made its toy. A few years ago there was a topic on STS about this, suddenly we discovered "Authentic Vienna cold bronze" animals which look a lot like Papo or Schleich. The weird thing is , even if I can't collect this kind of stuff, I was watching Vienna bronze for a long time. It was funny to see that these "authentic" only appeared on the market after Schleich and Papo made their toys. They were visible on sites where experts, or alleged such, sold these "authentic" models for a small fortune. And then suddenly everything disappeared and the "experts" fell silent.

Christophe, otter discussed here:

https://sts-forum.forumieren.de/t11309-john-hill-co-and-cherilea-zoo

Unfortunately, all Dave's images are no longer in the thread.

Chris Sweetman wrote:

Christophe, otter discussed here:

https://sts-forum.forumieren.de/t11309-john-hill-co-and-cherilea-zoo

Unfortunately, all Dave's images are no longer in the thread.

Yes I remember  I was just discussing about Vienna bronze authenticity that can be doubtful sometimes. 

Now, have a look at this old topic and you will see the pics 

Kikimalou wrote:

Well, BF was more well known in France that the lesser known British brand you are talking about... Britains you say ? Does it live in water ? 

True, I remember that you mentioned this before, but the question is: Was Britains better known in France than BF was in Britain? I'd say the former. Even if they were equally known in the other country, you'd still expect that a smaller company is more likely to imitate the more successful company. This doesn't make it impossible that Britains imitated BF, but we need to add up all the evidence. The other evidence is stronger: The fact that BF imitated Hausser, the evidence from the wild boar and the fact that "Animals of the world" has no pictures that only BF used together make it very likely that BF imitated Britains.

Kikimalou wrote:

Nevertheless I can agree with you but it would mean BF would have produced an Emu, a Prezwalski horse, an anteater before making a bison or an hippo ? It is a weird idea too...

I agree, but it certainly isn't impossible. It's a long time ago, so we may not recognise all the originals, they may have been lost in the mist of time. For example, in the Johillco topic, you discovered that BF and Johillco had the same kangaroo. We don't know whether BF copied Johillco or the other way around, but it could also be that like with the otter, both companies imitated a third company. And the Blancherie brothers were definitely creative, they didn't just copy, so it is possible that they changed the originals so much that they are no longer recognisable. For example, the BF tiger doesn't really look like a copy of the Britains, but it does have a similar pose.

Perhaps BF started off making their own sculpts, but then discovered that it was easier to improve already existing moulds. Or, because we aren't quite sure about the years, it may be that they started with copies and then realised they might as well do the sculpting themselves.

One interesting thing is that quite a few of the Britains imitations are additional models of the same species: the lioness, brown bear, eland, polar bear and polar bear cub. Same for the kangaroo that they shared with Johillco. It might suggest (no proof) that they added these imitations later just to expand the number of models. I find especially the lioness striking, because it is uncommon for a company to make more lionesses than lions. The lion is not a copy as far as we know, so they may first have made the standing lion and lioness and then later have added the lying Britains lioness.

Isn't the BF Przewalski an imitation/copy of the BF zebra, which in turn is rather similar to the Britains zebra?

I love these kinds of puzzles!

A few notes:

John Hill & Company, or Johillco, was started in 1898 by F.H.Wood, a former employee of W. Britain.

Britains did have a Paris office and made toy soldiers in France for a limited period.

Dennis Britain states in this article that he designed the zoo animals from the 1930's to the 1950's and sketched them whilst observing them in London Zoo:

https://www.wbritain.com/media/cms/inmemoryofmrbritain_94C2DD15BA4A7.pdf

Roger, Chris, all what you are saying is true, except Dennis Britain used also pics to make models and not "only" observing them in London zoo. It is obvious particuraly with the Eland, the Britains is grey as a B&W picture found in a book, the BF have the real colours you can watch in a zoo.
One of The Blancherie brothers also claimed he sculpted his toys from zoo observation, looking at the species produced and the colours choice it is highly believable
Britains had a Paris office but it seems it didn't work so much, there was a lot of established Toy soldiers brands in France.
BF was a small company but sold its models as far as the USA and Australia, as Britains so maybe it tried to sell also in UK. It means both could know the others production.
Pfeiffer began in 1898 too and the first attested Zoo animals series is from 1900, also there is poor chance a composition bigger models maker would use a small hollowcast lead toy as a reference.
I still hope to have more info soon. 

Kikimalou wrote:

One of The Blancherie brothers also claimed he sculpted his toys from zoo observation, looking at the species produced and the colours choice it is highly believable.

This may well be true, because there are quite a few BF models that we don't recognise as imitations. But in addition, I think there is very strong evidence that they imitated other models. Perhaps one brother made the new sculpts and the other the copies .

Kikimalou wrote:

Pfeiffer began in 1898 too and the first attested Zoo animals series is from 1900, also there is poor chance a composition bigger models maker would use a small hollowcast lead toy as a reference.

Sorry, I don't quite understand. Which model does this refer to?

Kikimalou wrote:

It is obvious particuraly with the Eland, the Britains is grey as a B&W picture found in a book, the BF have the real colours you can watch in a zoo.

The eland is an interesting case. If BF imitated Britains, then it makes sense that they changed the colour because the Britains colour was wrong. But if Britains imitated BF, then why would they change it to the wrong colour? It isn't conclusive evidence, but it is again consistent with the idea that BF imitated Britains rather than the other way around.

Just to be clear: I really like the BF animals and certainly in terms of painting, they surpassed the Britains. I wouldn't mind if the BFs turned out to be the originals, but everything points to the opposite.

It will be interesting to see what you can find out from people who knew the Blancherie brothers. Not just about how they started, but also how it ended and how they survived the war. And how big was their company? How many employees did they have, in which countries did they sell? Did they make other products apart from zoo animals? It's probably going to be very difficult to get information about exact years after such a long time. I don't know whether they made catalogues or kept records of what they produced and sold; if you could see them, that would reveal a lot. Photographs of the brothers and their factory would be amazing too.

You are right about the eland, that's what I think too, it is even for me the most obvious point to tell BF copied some Britains.

To be clear too, I don't want to make a competition between two old brands we can enjoy, my goal is to learn more about BF since Britains history and catalog is very well known. The who copy who is important because we have interresting information if BF copied Britains.

BF also produced toy soldiers, Western, farm and civilian toys.

I hope I will have some good things to know.

By chance, I bought two rare versions of the Herald/Britains standing cow H1533. I just got them because they were in a good condition and did not realise they were rare versions.


The Herald Friesian cows were originally produced between 1955 and 1959 in polythene and marked with the Herald symbol. However, my cows are made of PVC and marked BRITAINS LTD MADE IN ENGLAND.

In his Britains Farm Models book, Barney Brown explains that the standing cow was reintroduced in PVC plastic for a short time around 1968 and marked ‘BRITAINS LTD - MADE IN ENGLAND'. They were probably conscripted back into service not for their superior milk yield but as a result of the increasing deterioration of the Britains standing cow mould, which had seen uninterrupted production since 1958. These PVC ‘Herald' cows are quite rare, as new models of both the standing and feeding cows had been introduced by 1970.