papo 2012 caiman or baby Croc ?

Roger wrote:

Steve170 wrote:

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

This is a classic type of debate. Here are my 2 cents...

This model is MARKETED as a juvenile/baby croc and is intended to pair with the adult.

However, it LOOKS very much so like a caiman, and I see no reason why it cant be a baby croc OR  a caiman for YOUR collection. Who cares what anybody else thinks? Unless you are looking for general taxonomic differences (in which case I cant help on this topic). But I think it can be whatever you feel it looks like best. I hope this helps.

Thanks and yes I have no problems with naming my own species for a figure, it is as you asked unless anyone can tell me why I shouldn't. In other words someone with more knowledge than me of the species. Sorry I might not have made this clear initially.

Obviously we can use it as whatever we want but I also find it a very interesting debate. I can't be sure myself of what happened here. Does the sculptor had a caiman done and Papo found it viable for a baby crocodile? Does it was supposed to be introduced as a caiman and later Papo found it more marketable as a baby for their large croc? Is it a juvenile croc that resulted  quite similar to a caiman? I find it interesting but I have some observations.
Spectacled caimans have a spectacle shaped ridge between their eyes, can you see it in this figure? I can't but it may not be easy to spot. If it is missing it, why would the sculptor ignore the feature that contributes decisively to the identification of the species?
Now going to other side of the subject, do it looks like a Nile crocodile baby? Crocodile babies have heads completely different from their parents, they look actually like alligatorid heads. Though, it seems obvious that this figure is not close to what we expect from a Nile crocodile baby. Not for sure a hatchling and unlikely a juvenile.
So, isn't it a youngster? The dentition,  not easy to represent in a toy, looks more adjusted for a juvenile. limbs also look relatively delicate and torso is really narrow. Apparently, we don't have a baby neither an adulte, it is a juvenile specimen, in my opinion.
Though, it looks much more like an alligatorid than a crocodile. I hope I helped to turn it even more cofuse.

Thank you Roger, this was both exactly what I wanted and also what I didn't want to hear ! I never knew about the ridge between the eyes...if this is an important feature of the species then that is something I can't overlook if I am going to change the species myself. Personally, I think it's more likely Papo would have called it a caiman if it was intended to be a caiman. I do not buy the marketing debate on this occasion as I can't see a caiman not selling because it is a caiman. At the same time I do not see why they would make a baby Crocodile to their nile so large, so maybe the marketing argument is valid on this issue, a baby croc would sell more than a juvenile, but then why not make it much smaller and therfore an actual baby croc (like the Schleich). As you say, it is a very interesting one. I did notice the narrow torso and that bugged me, so between that and the lack of the ridge, along with some other points you made, I cannot add this as a caiman to MY collection. Which is frustrating and as I'm writing this I have two fingers of my left hand crossed .... I could always add it as a spectacled caiman until a genuine one is officially released... .

This is quite a strange debate with arguments for and against and against and for so I imagine I contradicted myself a few times. Other figures would not necessarily get this much scrutiny from me.

I imagine you are correct in your view on what this animal is. It is a very nice sculpt anyway.

So a spectacled cayman juvenile then!
I hope everybody is safe during this Corona-virus pandemy btw...

WILLYBACOMAN wrote:

So a spectacled cayman juvenile then!
I hope everybody is safe during this Corona-virus pandemy btw...

I hope you are doing well too, Willy! Are you barricated at home as most of us?
Thanks also for saving Steve with your suggestion!

Nice to see you Willy.

I think Roger's explanation is excellent for your collection steve.

One reason why these conundrums could have happened, or how we get "chimaera" models like the papo hyena is the fault of ignorance and google images I suspect. I'm sure that some designers/sculptors told to make a new croc for a company can just google that and google brings up a conglomeration of images of various species or even searching for a species it will bring up wrongly identified photos. This happens with wolves a lot (in my experience), so you have to know your stuff to properly identify. This way, people who dont know the difference or cant detect the finer points of a species make a model that's not quite right (i.e. papos spotted hyena clearly being too fluffy like in a brown or striped).  In the case of the croc who knows. Maybe they scaled the "baby" up to follow child safety laws? (Small figures can cause choking etc.) Maybe it was a scrapped project for a caiman or even a chinese alligator? Who knows.

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

Nice to see you Willy.

I think Roger's explanation is excellent for your collection steve.

One reason why these conundrums could have happened, or how we get "chimaera" models like the papo hyena is the fault of ignorance and google images I suspect. I'm sure that some designers/sculptors told to make a new croc for a company can just google that and google brings up a conglomeration of images of various species or even searching for a species it will bring up wrongly identified photos. This happens with wolves a lot (in my experience), so you have to know your stuff to properly identify. This way, people who dont know the difference or cant detect the finer points of a species make a model that's not quite right (i.e. papos spotted hyena clearly being too fluffy like in a brown or striped).  In the case of the croc who knows. Maybe they scaled the "baby" up to follow child safety laws? (Small figures can cause choking etc.) Maybe it was a scrapped project for a caiman or even a chinese alligator? Who knows.

You make a really good point there. I have been googling shark species a lot lately and it's incredible how many different species of shark look identical to the great white . I have also seen this when you Google spectacled caiman.

WILLYBACOMAN wrote:

So a spectacled cayman juvenile then!
I hope everybody is safe during this Corona-virus pandemy btw...

Haha! My collection doesn't include juveniles so you have given me a pro and a con in just two words, impressive. Soon my head will hurt so much that I will just buy it an call it a caiman.

Thanks and I hope you are well too.

Steve170 wrote:

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

Nice to see you Willy.

I think Roger's explanation is excellent for your collection steve.

One reason why these conundrums could have happened, or how we get "chimaera" models like the papo hyena is the fault of ignorance and google images I suspect. I'm sure that some designers/sculptors told to make a new croc for a company can just google that and google brings up a conglomeration of images of various species or even searching for a species it will bring up wrongly identified photos. This happens with wolves a lot (in my experience), so you have to know your stuff to properly identify. This way, people who dont know the difference or cant detect the finer points of a species make a model that's not quite right (i.e. papos spotted hyena clearly being too fluffy like in a brown or striped).  In the case of the croc who knows. Maybe they scaled the "baby" up to follow child safety laws? (Small figures can cause choking etc.) Maybe it was a scrapped project for a caiman or even a chinese alligator? Who knows.

You make a really good point there. I have been googling shark species a lot lately and it's incredible how many different species of shark look identical to the great white . I have also seen this when you Google spectacled caiman.

Thank you! Yeah, i am still around, although i stopped collecting animal-models a few years ago, i am still stuk with thousands of them, i think i have to put them for sale here, as my facebook-account was hacked in last december, and i am not even able to make a new account!

Oh no! That's scary news about your facebook account. Lots of members here could help you with your collection though. It's nice to see you visit! I've been thinking of long time members I haven't seen here for a while, so it's good to see one of the originals come back!

Saarlooswolfhound wrote:

Oh no! That's scary news about your facebook account. Lots of members here could help you with your collection though. It's nice to see you visit! I've been thinking of long time members I haven't seen here for a while, so it's good to see one of the originals come back!

Yes, but those things happen sadly enough.
But i am working on it with some IT specialists, and i will hide my IP adres in the future soon.
Because now FB sees me as a fraud appearently, although it was not caused by myself, but by a hacker from Tanzania.
And yes, when i post parts of my collection here, a lot of them will be sold i guess.