The Papo 50117 reindeer :-)

Many thanks Harriet, Roger, Scott and Christophe

And for a really good price--$5.74...still waiting on the Oryx!

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SeanieP wrote:

And for a really good price--$5.74...still waiting on the Oryx!

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Yes Happyhentoys.com usually got a very good price for animal figures.

Gosh ! Look at the prices
See the retired Papo horses here at the bottom at the page :
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Thanks for the link.
With this prices I think the Papo croc deserves a place in my collection.

Congrats!  

I've worked with and lived around reindeer for a brief part of my life, so I thought I might share a few petty insights to the morphological stuff discussed here. The Papo model, its paintwork aside, isn't all that bad in my opinion - it's certainly a leggy specimen sporting a "hay belly" while carrying no great amounts of stored fat, but his is still a very possible body shape overall, if not commonplace everywhere (I'll elaborate below).

His pose isn't as unrealistic either as the same "Papo spreadeagledness" is on some of their other ungulates (the ambulatory ones particularly) - the saving grace being that the reindeer model is shown standing still. From what I've seen, many reindeer, especially the heavier mature males, do indeed stand with their hind legs splaying out a good bit. Granted, in the real animals the splaying isn't begun from the hip joint like it is on the model, and it is rarely quite *that* pronounced (except when urinating). Still, I wouldn't fault this particular model too severely on the "Papo pose" - as it happens, these animals do it.



As for reindeer morphology, I can only really speak of the Fennoscandian subspecies from any experience - of the caribou in North America or Greenland I know nothing, and the Russian tundra reindeer I've only seen in films. Anyhow: reindeer morphology varies somewhat according to gender, age, physical condition and length of coat as surmised here, but also by region.

The domestic reindeer in Fennoscandia (Rangifer tarandus tarandus - of which there remain two wild but morphologically indistiguishable populations too, in Southern Norway and the Kola Peninsula in Russia) tends to be shaped like "rectangles on feet" when in reasonable body condition, with flattish, featureless torsos (no bone protusions or marked abdominal roundness) on medium-length legs ending in broad "snowshoe" hooves. The dwarfed Svalbard island subspecies (Rangifer tarandus platyrhynchus) is an exception to this, of course, being very rotund with markedly short legs, and significantly smaller than other reindeer.

Finland and Russia also house two populations of Finnish forest reindeer (Rangifer tarandus fennicus), which is a wild woodland subspecies that differs from the domestic in appearance. These reindeer are far taller, leaner and longer-legged than their domestic neighbours; have longer and narrower faces but wider muzzles; narrower and longer hooves; are generally darker in coat colour and rarely have white markings; and tend to have more narrowly-set antlers, making it easier for them to travel through forest. Overall they're a leaner-looking animal with noticeably longer legs. They're also the largest subspecies around.

I have to note that Norway has (or has had - don't know how the situation is now) an overpopulation problem with their reindeer for a while now resulting in differing levels of widespread starvation among their animals, so pictures of these reindeer may skew online image results toward the slim to emaciated for Scandinavian reindeer. Similarly, captive reindeer, like many wild ruminants, are difficult keepers because of their specialised manner of foraging virtually unreplicable in captivity, often resulting in pretty dire-looking specimens being housed by zoos. Just a few things to keep in mind when assessing typical appearances online.



As for reindeer morphology outside Fennoscandia, my feeble expertise ends there. All I can say is that the tundra-roaming reindeer in Russia seem to tend toward the leggy, slim type, apparently often carrying more grandiose antlers than is common here, and apparently being a bit taller than our local domestic subspecies (they're more or less tall enough to ride, and ridden they are). I think the Papo model would make a very reasonable domestic tundra reindeer or R. t. fennicus (antler orientation aside, perhaps) - for a R. t. tarandus it's a bit gangly, large-headed and potbellied. In any case, the model's uniformly blue-grey colour is just wrong for any reindeer.



Oh, and also: the rings around the eyes are commonplace in our local domestic stock at least. I've most often seen them on individuals with starkly contrasted coat colourations as part of a face mask (all of which is of course absent in the Papo model). Whether they're part of a coat changing pattern, I couldn't tell.

There we go. Sorry for the long text. Perhaps it'll be of aid to anyone wanting to assign their model a subspecies, though.

WOW!! I din't know all that   

So there is a population of a wild reindeer species in Finland   

Thankyou ever so much for sharing from your knowledge, Lea. I am going back to, read it again now    

Lea, thanks of this writing this interesting information! It's great to learn something new. I had no idea about forest reindeer and a variety of regional types

Thank you Lea for this great post. I learned a lot   

Glad to have been of use. Also, I corrected the post a bit - I'd once used the term "taiga reindeer" where I'd meant the open-plains tundra type as opposed to the boreal.

This was really interesting Lea! Thank you for such a fascinating post!

I have a question for you. Which Reindeer/Caribou model do you prefer the most? (I'm thinking specifically of the old Schleich, the Safari, the Bullyland, and the recent Papo.)

(No pressure, you don't have to answer.)

I'm glad you found it interesting, Scott! As for my preferred model: I haven't actually seen the other popular reindeer models in person - I only have the Papo. Even so, I can safely say I find the Papo by far the nicest.

It simply has that reindeersy feel to it, which I find most all of the other models (save the old Schleich reindeer perhaps) lack, plus it has several anatomical accuracies and details on top of that that I very much value. The old Schleich 14239 and possibly the Bullyland reindeer don't seem too bad, but their overtly thick legs & antlers and cow hooves plus the coarse general sculpting of the latter model rather ruin them for me. Reindeer are awkward, spindly-legged things with very particular hooves and a very specific way of moving and carrying themselves - and I think only the Papo model really captures that. Its paintwork is pretty inexplicable, of course, but as a repainter I don't really come to take that stuff into account when assessing commercial figurines.

To elaborate on my views on the other models you mentioned: The Schleich, I find, has the calm standing pose nailed, but is far inferior to the Papo in the level of detail, has bovine hooves and suffers from the aforementioned issues with thick extremities. The Bullyland, too, still has something right about its pose, but the general level of sculpting is poor in my view. The Safari Ltd. reindeer, in the meanwhile, is a strange example of a sculpt that more or less sports the external characteristics of a reindeer but still lacks all instant recognizability - composition, conformation and biomechanics-wise - as one. It's more like a flighty pony with really thick legs dressed as a reindeer. I find it a very odd sculpture.

Well, it seems I will look differently my reindeer collection now      

Thank you so much Lea! It was genuinely a pleasure to read your thoughts on these models! Really really enjoyable. And like Christophe, I'll definitely be looking at my reindeer differently, especially the Safari.

(Of course there's still some questions to ask about the Lineol and Preiser reindeer! But I've never seen those in person.)

I also find your contribution very interesting, Lea!
This is an animal hard to manufacture to modern companies. As Scott remembered, we have some vintage figures with more delicate sculpting and I don't resist to put here the Lineol caribou from Harriet's collection. It has a little work from her but we can see how great is the original.
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Kikimalou wrote:

Well, it seems I will look differently my reindeer collection now      

Not with any lessened fondness because of my ramblings, I hope. I'm a hopelessly anatomically-minded and pernickety collector, so my opinions of pieces are usually rather one-eyed and severe that way. If stressing over tendons and bone measurements on plastic toys isn't your thing, I think you can safely ignore my judgement.  

scot(t) wrote:

Thank you so much Lea! It was genuinely a pleasure to read your thoughts on these models! Really really enjoyable. And like Christophe, I'll definitely be looking at my reindeer differently, especially the Safari.

(Of course there's still some questions to ask about the Lineol and Preiser reindeer! But I've never seen those in person.)

I'm glad I didn't bore you! I usually keep my opinions on sculptures to myself, since people don't like to hear one endlessly grumble and moan (and criticisms are mostly what I have..), but I'm very happy this wasn't the case now. As for the vintage reindeer: I've not seen either sculpture in person neither, but from mere pictures the Preiser appears the usual horse-dressed-up-as-reindeer, while the Lineol is just sublime. (With their similar poses they actually illustrate well the difference in instant species recognizability the presence or absence of accurate basics - planes, composition, biomechanics - make in a sculpture.)

The Lineol reindeer is a perfect example of why I appreciate the "vintage sculpting style" so - the sculpture is of a pretty modest-looking animal in a very modest non-action pose; it isn't your fat Autumn bull puffing itself up or proudly trotting along, and aside from the majestic antlers, it lacks the "instant pizzazz" gimmicks of bushy beards and bulging necks that are often applied to reindeer sculptures to lend them easy bling. Furthermore the sculpt is technically fairly crude with little surface detail or molding finesse - but because the plane work and composition of the sculpture are excellent, it's not only instantly recognizable as a reindeer, but has that rare alive feel of one too. By looking at the sculpture, one can see how the animal it portrays would move, and that this movement would be precisely that of our real reindeer.

That attention to the "essence" of each animal is what I rather miss from the old Lineol, Britains, Jean Höfler etc. sculptures. Instead of focusing on replicating solely surface detail as accurately as possible, I'd love to see more attention being paid to the accuracy of planes and composition in a sculpture. That way we might see more biomechanically solid pieces, as well as ones with sheer true-to-species presence in them.


[Edit Jan 8th: Corrected my confused use of 'Elastolin' where I'd meant Lineol. Sorry!]

Lea, your criticism is very welcome    First I like the way you are "fighting" to save the Papo reindeer and not only against everything, it is a very positive way and you are not grumbling and moaning. So I don't want to ignore your judgement because it improves mine. it is important because for me it is a part of the essence of STS, we are better together   

I love your answer to Scott because you put words on some of my convictions. plane, composition, biomechanics... The "essence" is more important than details and some older brands are still references for that. I don't mean modern brands are far from this, every year I can see models that have at least a part of this "essence" even if we could discuss some details.

I love this topic, I remember such topics in the past and I guess Roger remembered them too   . This is an excellent topic and I wish, I hope you will make more topics like that, with a lot of kindness and explanation.   

This morning I was looking to my Jean Höfler and Lineol mooses and i was thinking about you   

Nevertheless, Roger's pic shows a Lineol reindeer. So I will show and Hausser Elastolin and a Preiser reindeer. I think it helped to understand your explanations.

Lovely to hear I haven't got on your nerves (yet.. ) with my blathering. My morphological knowledge is pretty much limited to horses (perhaps very marginally extending to reindeer and dogs), so I don't know how much of any value I'll be able to contribute when other species are concerned - but I'll certainly be happy to try, since it's been so patiently received. Also - oh, that Lineol elk (moose)... The sculpture is a pinnacle of ungulate grace!

And indeed, I was talking about the Lineol reindeer all along, not the Elastolin - I still mix up the two brands, being quite unfamiliar with both. I've corrected my mistake to the above post now.

As for the Elastolin reindeer, now that there's a good picture of it up, and as it makes a good third comparison piece in the vintage reindeer sculptures discussed above: To me, it sits somewhere between the excellent Lineol and the bland Preiser in that it has the grace and excellent plane work of the Lineol, but its bovine pose somehow eradicates a lot of the reindeersy feel from it, a bit like the equine pose of the Preiser. Still, I think it's one of the best commercially released reindeer sculptures around, up there with the Lineol and - for me anyways - the Papo. You're a lucky chap to have it - and that elk!

You are welcome Lea   

I don't have any of these three reindeers alas, I have only pics   

Kikimalou wrote:

I love this topic, I remember such topics in the past and I guess Roger remembered them too   . This is an excellent topic and I wish, I hope you will make more topics like that, with a lot of kindness and explanation.   

Of course I remember, Christophe!
Actually I enjoy also a lot this kind of discussions and it is not hard for me to change my opinnion about a figure after reading something as eloquent as Lea did.
Next time, I'll surely see the Papo reindeer with different eyes.

Look at those legs! xD He's a very amusing character, I find. Looks like he'd taken a trip out onto a patch of ice!

Roger wrote:

Actually I enjoy also a lot this kind of discussions and it is not hard for me to change my opinnion about a figure after reading something as eloquent as Lea did.
Next time, I'll surely see the Papo reindeer with different eyes.

My feelings exactly! These are great discussions.

I know that there is not a huge difference between the two, but I would like somebody to make a caribou, specifically woodland and central barren-ground caribou.   

scot(t) wrote:

Roger wrote:

Actually I enjoy also a lot this kind of discussions and it is not hard for me to change my opinnion about a figure after reading something as eloquent as Lea did.
Next time, I'll surely see the Papo reindeer with different eyes.

My feelings exactly! These are great discussions.

Exactly